Discussion:
Overlay and Applications
(too old to reply)
Kemes, Lisa
2012-01-10 18:07:49 UTC
Permalink
There are a few OOB Deployable Applications that come with AR System 7.6.04 and we want to hide them from the object list. So I opened up the application (AR System Sample Application for example) and made this application hidden.

But you can't overlay an application, so when we ever upgrade, these changes will be overwritten?

Just making sure. Not a big deal I guess, but I wonder why they would make them public.....

Lisa Kemes
AR System Developer
TEIS - USA
+1 717 810 2408 tel
+1 717 602 9460 mobile
***@te.com<mailto:***@te.com>
100 Amp Drive
Harrisburg, PA 17112

[Loading Image...]<http://www.te.com/>

www.te.com<http://www.te.com/>

[Loading Image...]<http://twitter.com/teconnectivity> [Loading Image...] <http://www.facebook.com/teconnectivity> [Loading Image...] <http://www.flickr.com/photos/teconnectivity/> [Loading Image...] <http://www.linkedin.com/groups?gid=1591657> [Loading Image...] <http://www.youtube.com/teconnectivity>


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Easter, David
2012-01-11 20:42:36 UTC
Permalink
If you did it at the app level, you probably had to switch to base mode to make the change you did... and if you make a change to a BMC object in base mode, then yes - the upgrade would overwrite that change.

You can overlay an application - but you'd have to overlay the entire application, which it doesn't sound like you did.

-David J. Easter
Manager of Product Management, Remedy Platform
BMC Software, Inc.

The opinions, statements, and/or suggested courses of action expressed in this E-mail do not necessarily reflect those of BMC Software, Inc. My voluntary participation in this forum is not intended to convey a role as a spokesperson, liaison or public relations representative for BMC Software, Inc.

From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) [mailto:***@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Kemes, Lisa
Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2012 10:08 AM
To: ***@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Overlay and Applications

**
There are a few OOB Deployable Applications that come with AR System 7.6.04 and we want to hide them from the object list. So I opened up the application (AR System Sample Application for example) and made this application hidden.

But you can't overlay an application, so when we ever upgrade, these changes will be overwritten?

Just making sure. Not a big deal I guess, but I wonder why they would make them public.....

Lisa Kemes
AR System Developer
TEIS - USA
+1 717 810 2408 tel
+1 717 602 9460 mobile
***@te.com<mailto:***@te.com>
100 Amp Drive
Harrisburg, PA 17112

[http://www.te.com/images/socialmedia/smallTElogo.gif]<http://www.te.com/>

www.te.com<http://www.te.com/>

[Loading Image...]<http://www.youtube.com/teconnectivity>

_attend WWRUG12 www.wwrug.com ARSlist: "Where the Answers Are"_

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LJ LongWing
2012-01-11 21:24:54 UTC
Permalink
David,

I don't often challenge your word because you are so good at what you do
that you don't often make mistakes.so if I'm wrong.please forgive..but.



I don't see the ability to overlay a deployable application. Based on what
I read 'you can't version data'..and a deployable application is almost
purely data..so I don't think that your statement below is accurate. If it
is accurate, can you provide additional details on how to overlay an
application.



From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:***@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Easter, David
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 1:43 PM
To: ***@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: Overlay and Applications



**

If you did it at the app level, you probably had to switch to base mode to
make the change you did. and if you make a change to a BMC object in base
mode, then yes - the upgrade would overwrite that change.



You can overlay an application - but you'd have to overlay the entire
application, which it doesn't sound like you did.



-David J. Easter

Manager of Product Management, Remedy Platform

BMC Software, Inc.



The opinions, statements, and/or suggested courses of action expressed in
this E-mail do not necessarily reflect those of BMC Software, Inc. My
voluntary participation in this forum is not intended to convey a role as a
spokesperson, liaison or public relations representative for BMC Software,
Inc.



From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:***@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Kemes, Lisa
Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2012 10:08 AM
To: ***@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Overlay and Applications



**

There are a few OOB Deployable Applications that come with AR System 7.6.04
and we want to hide them from the object list. So I opened up the
application (AR System Sample Application for example) and made this
application hidden.



But you can't overlay an application, so when we ever upgrade, these changes
will be overwritten?



Just making sure. Not a big deal I guess, but I wonder why they would make
them public.....



Lisa Kemes

AR System Developer
TEIS - USA

+1 717 810 2408 tel
+1 717 602 9460 mobile
***@te.com
100 Amp Drive

Harrisburg, PA 17112

<http://www.te.com/>

www.te.com <http://www.te.com/>

<http://twitter.com/teconnectivity>
<http://www.facebook.com/teconnectivity>
<http://www.flickr.com/photos/teconnectivity/>
<http://www.linkedin.com/groups?gid=1591657>
<http://www.youtube.com/teconnectivity>



_attend WWRUG12 www.wwrug.com ARSlist: "Where the Answers Are"_

_attend WWRUG12 www.wwrug.com ARSlist: "Where the Answers Are"_


_______________________________________________________________________________
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Wirasat Siddiqi
2012-01-11 21:32:13 UTC
Permalink
That is what I am reading regarding the deployable application in 'Forms
and Application Object Guide' Page 125.

Nonoverlayable
objects
You cannot create overlays for the following items:
? Custom objects?See ?About custom objects? on page 123.
? Deployable applications?Overlays of deployable applications are not
supported for licensing reasons. You can, however, overlay and customize
the
objects within the deployable applications. See ?Deployable applications
in
AR System? on page 86.
Creating and modifying deployable applications is not permitted in Best
Practice Customization mode. See Introduction to Application Development
with
BMC Remedy Developer Studio, ?About development modes? on page 27.

Thanks,
Wirasat Siddiqi
Remedy Development Team
Desk Phone: 202-502-3204
Cell: 202-368-7190
Email: ***@ao.uscourts.gov




From: LJ LongWing <***@GMAIL.COM>
To: ***@ARSLIST.ORG
Date: 01/11/2012 04:24 PM
Subject: Re: Overlay and Applications
Sent by: "Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)"
<***@ARSLIST.ORG>



**
David,
I don?t often challenge your word because you are so good at what you do
that you don?t often make mistakes?so if I?m wrong?please forgive?.but?

I don?t see the ability to overlay a deployable application. Based on
what I read ?you can?t version data??.and a deployable application is
almost purely data?.so I don?t think that your statement below is
accurate. If it is accurate, can you provide additional details on how to
overlay an application.

From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) [
mailto:***@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Easter, David
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 1:43 PM
To: ***@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: Overlay and Applications

**
If you did it at the app level, you probably had to switch to base mode to
make the change you did? and if you make a change to a BMC object in base
mode, then yes ? the upgrade would overwrite that change.

You can overlay an application ? but you?d have to overlay the entire
application, which it doesn?t sound like you did.

-David J. Easter
Manager of Product Management, Remedy Platform
BMC Software, Inc.

The opinions, statements, and/or suggested courses of action expressed in
this E-mail do not necessarily reflect those of BMC Software, Inc. My
voluntary participation in this forum is not intended to convey a role as
a spokesperson, liaison or public relations representative for BMC
Software, Inc.

From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) [
mailto:***@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Kemes, Lisa
Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2012 10:08 AM
To: ***@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Overlay and Applications

**
There are a few OOB Deployable Applications that come with AR System
7.6.04 and we want to hide them from the object list. So I opened up the
application (AR System Sample Application for example) and made this
application hidden.

But you can't overlay an application, so when we ever upgrade, these
changes will be overwritten?

Just making sure. Not a big deal I guess, but I wonder why they would
make them public.....

Lisa Kemes
AR System Developer
TEIS - USA
+1 717 810 2408 tel
+1 717 602 9460 mobile
***@te.com
100 Amp Drive
Harrisburg, PA 17112



www.te.com



_attend WWRUG12 www.wwrug.com ARSlist: "Where the Answers Are"_
_attend WWRUG12 www.wwrug.com ARSlist: "Where the Answers Are"_
_attend WWRUG12 www.wwrug.com ARSlist: "Where the Answers Are"_

_______________________________________________________________________________
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Easter, David
2012-01-11 21:42:11 UTC
Permalink
I was referring more to what is stated in second sentence i.e. "You can, however, overlay and customize the objects within the deployable applications. " My apologies for not being more explicit. That's what I meant by "entire" application vs. the shell around the application.

-David J. Easter
Manager of Product Management, Remedy Platform
BMC Software, Inc.

The opinions, statements, and/or suggested courses of action expressed in this E-mail do not necessarily reflect those of BMC Software, Inc. My voluntary participation in this forum is not intended to convey a role as a spokesperson, liaison or public relations representative for BMC Software, Inc.

From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) [mailto:***@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Wirasat Siddiqi
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 1:32 PM
To: ***@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: Overlay and Applications

** That is what I am reading regarding the deployable application in 'Forms and Application Object Guide' Page 125.

Nonoverlayable
objects
You cannot create overlays for the following items:
&#1048708; Custom objects-See "About custom objects" on page 123.
&#1048708; Deployable applications-Overlays of deployable applications are not
supported for licensing reasons. You can, however, overlay and customize the
objects within the deployable applications. See "Deployable applications in
AR System" on page 86.
Creating and modifying deployable applications is not permitted in Best
Practice Customization mode. See Introduction to Application Development with
BMC Remedy Developer Studio, "About development modes" on page 27.

Thanks,
Wirasat Siddiqi
Remedy Development Team
Desk Phone: 202-502-3204
Cell: 202-368-7190
Email: ***@ao.uscourts.gov




From: LJ LongWing <***@GMAIL.COM>
To: ***@ARSLIST.ORG
Date: 01/11/2012 04:24 PM
Subject: Re: Overlay and Applications
Sent by: "Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)" <***@ARSLIST.ORG>
________________________________



**
David,
I don't often challenge your word because you are so good at what you do that you don't often make mistakes...so if I'm wrong...please forgive....but...

I don't see the ability to overlay a deployable application. Based on what I read 'you can't version data'....and a deployable application is almost purely data....so I don't think that your statement below is accurate. If it is accurate, can you provide additional details on how to overlay an application.

From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) [mailto:***@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Easter, David
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 1:43 PM
To: ***@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: Overlay and Applications

**
If you did it at the app level, you probably had to switch to base mode to make the change you did... and if you make a change to a BMC object in base mode, then yes - the upgrade would overwrite that change.

You can overlay an application - but you'd have to overlay the entire application, which it doesn't sound like you did.

-David J. Easter
Manager of Product Management, Remedy Platform
BMC Software, Inc.

The opinions, statements, and/or suggested courses of action expressed in this E-mail do not necessarily reflect those of BMC Software, Inc. My voluntary participation in this forum is not intended to convey a role as a spokesperson, liaison or public relations representative for BMC Software, Inc.

From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) [mailto:***@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Kemes, Lisa
Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2012 10:08 AM
To: ***@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Overlay and Applications

**
There are a few OOB Deployable Applications that come with AR System 7.6.04 and we want to hide them from the object list. So I opened up the application (AR System Sample Application for example) and made this application hidden.

But you can't overlay an application, so when we ever upgrade, these changes will be overwritten?

Just making sure. Not a big deal I guess, but I wonder why they would make them public.....

Lisa Kemes
AR System Developer
TEIS - USA
+1 717 810 2408 tel
+1 717 602 9460 mobile
***@te.com<mailto:***@te.com>
100 Amp Drive
Harrisburg, PA 17112



www.te.com<http://www.te.com/>



_attend WWRUG12 www.wwrug.com ARSlist: "Where the Answers Are"_
_attend WWRUG12 www.wwrug.com ARSlist: "Where the Answers Are"_

_attend WWRUG12 www.wwrug.com ARSlist: "Where the Answers Are"_

_attend WWRUG12 www.wwrug.com ARSlist: "Where the Answers Are"_

_______________________________________________________________________________
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LJ LongWing
2012-01-11 21:45:17 UTC
Permalink
Ok
so are the OOTB ITSM Applications deployable?



From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) [mailto:***@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Wirasat Siddiqi
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 2:32 PM
To: ***@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: Overlay and Applications



** That is what I am reading regarding the deployable application in 'Forms and Application Object Guide' Page 125.

Nonoverlayable
objects
You cannot create overlays for the following items:
􀂄 Custom objects—See “About custom objects” on page 123.
􀂄 Deployable applications—Overlays of deployable applications are not
supported for licensing reasons. You can, however, overlay and customize the
objects within the deployable applications. See “Deployable applications in
AR System” on page 86.
Creating and modifying deployable applications is not permitted in Best
Practice Customization mode. See Introduction to Application Development with
BMC Remedy Developer Studio, “About development modes” on page 27.

Thanks,
Wirasat Siddiqi
Remedy Development Team
Desk Phone: 202-502-3204
Cell: 202-368-7190
Email: ***@ao.uscourts.gov




From: LJ LongWing <***@GMAIL.COM>
To: ***@ARSLIST.ORG
Date: 01/11/2012 04:24 PM
Subject: Re: Overlay and Applications
Sent by: "Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)" <***@ARSLIST.ORG>

_____




**
David,
I don’t often challenge your word because you are so good at what you do that you don’t often make mistakes
so if I’m wrong
please forgive
.but


I don’t see the ability to overlay a deployable application. Based on what I read ‘you can’t version data’
.and a deployable application is almost purely data
.so I don’t think that your statement below is accurate. If it is accurate, can you provide additional details on how to overlay an application.

From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) [ <mailto:***@ARSLIST.ORG> mailto:***@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Easter, David
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 1:43 PM
To: ***@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: Overlay and Applications

**
If you did it at the app level, you probably had to switch to base mode to make the change you did
 and if you make a change to a BMC object in base mode, then yes – the upgrade would overwrite that change.

You can overlay an application – but you’d have to overlay the entire application, which it doesn’t sound like you did.

-David J. Easter
Manager of Product Management, Remedy Platform
BMC Software, Inc.

The opinions, statements, and/or suggested courses of action expressed in this E-mail do not necessarily reflect those of BMC Software, Inc. My voluntary participation in this forum is not intended to convey a role as a spokesperson, liaison or public relations representative for BMC Software, Inc.

From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) [ <mailto:***@ARSLIST.ORG> mailto:***@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Kemes, Lisa
Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2012 10:08 AM
To: ***@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Overlay and Applications

**
There are a few OOB Deployable Applications that come with AR System 7.6.04 and we want to hide them from the object list. So I opened up the application (AR System Sample Application for example) and made this application hidden.

But you can't overlay an application, so when we ever upgrade, these changes will be overwritten?

Just making sure. Not a big deal I guess, but I wonder why they would make them public.....

Lisa Kemes
AR System Developer
TEIS - USA
+1 717 810 2408 tel
+1 717 602 9460 mobile
<mailto:***@te.com> ***@te.com
100 Amp Drive
Harrisburg, PA 17112



www.te.com <http://www.te.com/>



_attend WWRUG12 www.wwrug.com ARSlist: "Where the Answers Are"_
_attend WWRUG12 www.wwrug.com ARSlist: "Where the Answers Are"_

_attend WWRUG12 www.wwrug.com ARSlist: "Where the Answers Are"_

_attend WWRUG12 www.wwrug.com ARSlist: "Where the Answers Are"_


_______________________________________________________________________________
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Mueller, Doug
2012-01-11 22:05:46 UTC
Permalink
Everyone,

Just to be clear and try and address all the questions.

Yes, the OOTB applications from BMC are all deployable applications.

Yes, you can overlay definitions that are inside deployable applications. Any form or workflow or menu
or anything in an application can be overlaid.

No, you cannot overlay the deployable application definition itself in the 7.6.04 release. There were some
technical issues as well as some business issues that we could not get resolved in time and had to make
the call of not allowing the deployable application itself to be overlaid or remove the overlay feature
altogether. So, we made the reasonable choice and kept the feature but limited this one type of
object.

And, the limitation is being resolved and deployable applications will be able to be overlaid in future
releases.

So, back to the original message (and Lisa got an answer to that already).

In order to change the characteristics of the deployable application today in 7.6.04, you would have to
modify the application in base mode. That will be overwritten during an upgrade and you need to be
aware that it will happen. Then, once you are upgraded to the next release of AR System, you will be
able to overlay that deployable application and make the changes in the overlay and they will be
preserved across upgrades just like the changes to forms/fields/views/active links/filters/menus/
escalations/
. are today.

I hope this helps clarify everything. The reality is that except for a very focused change like the one
that Lisa is trying to do, there is really limited reason to overlay deployable applications themselves. The
main need is to overlay a definition within the deployable application and that can be done today. But,
it is a limitation today the will be removed to modify the actual deployable application shell itself.

Doug Mueller

From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) [mailto:***@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of LJ LongWing
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 1:45 PM
To: ***@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: Overlay and Applications

**
Ok
so are the OOTB ITSM Applications deployable?

From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) [mailto:***@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Wirasat Siddiqi
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 2:32 PM
To: ***@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: Overlay and Applications

** That is what I am reading regarding the deployable application in 'Forms and Application Object Guide' Page 125.

Nonoverlayable
objects
You cannot create overlays for the following items:
&#1048708; Custom objects—See “About custom objects” on page 123.
&#1048708; Deployable applications—Overlays of deployable applications are not
supported for licensing reasons. You can, however, overlay and customize the
objects within the deployable applications. See “Deployable applications in
AR System” on page 86.
Creating and modifying deployable applications is not permitted in Best
Practice Customization mode. See Introduction to Application Development with
BMC Remedy Developer Studio, “About development modes” on page 27.

Thanks,
Wirasat Siddiqi
Remedy Development Team
Desk Phone: 202-502-3204
Cell: 202-368-7190
Email: ***@ao.uscourts.gov




From: LJ LongWing <***@GMAIL.COM>
To: ***@ARSLIST.ORG
Date: 01/11/2012 04:24 PM
Subject: Re: Overlay and Applications
Sent by: "Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)" <***@ARSLIST.ORG>
________________________________



**
David,
I don’t often challenge your word because you are so good at what you do that you don’t often make mistakes
so if I’m wrong
please forgive
.but


I don’t see the ability to overlay a deployable application. Based on what I read ‘you can’t version data’
.and a deployable application is almost purely data
.so I don’t think that your statement below is accurate. If it is accurate, can you provide additional details on how to overlay an application.

From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) [mailto:***@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Easter, David
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 1:43 PM
To: ***@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: Overlay and Applications

**
If you did it at the app level, you probably had to switch to base mode to make the change you did
 and if you make a change to a BMC object in base mode, then yes – the upgrade would overwrite that change.

You can overlay an application – but you’d have to overlay the entire application, which it doesn’t sound like you did.

-David J. Easter
Manager of Product Management, Remedy Platform
BMC Software, Inc.

The opinions, statements, and/or suggested courses of action expressed in this E-mail do not necessarily reflect those of BMC Software, Inc. My voluntary participation in this forum is not intended to convey a role as a spokesperson, liaison or public relations representative for BMC Software, Inc.

From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) [mailto:***@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Kemes, Lisa
Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2012 10:08 AM
To: ***@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Overlay and Applications

**
There are a few OOB Deployable Applications that come with AR System 7.6.04 and we want to hide them from the object list. So I opened up the application (AR System Sample Application for example) and made this application hidden.

But you can't overlay an application, so when we ever upgrade, these changes will be overwritten?

Just making sure. Not a big deal I guess, but I wonder why they would make them public.....

Lisa Kemes
AR System Developer
TEIS - USA
+1 717 810 2408 tel
+1 717 602 9460 mobile
***@te.com<mailto:***@te.com>
100 Amp Drive
Harrisburg, PA 17112



www.te.com<http://www.te.com/>



_attend WWRUG12 www.wwrug.com ARSlist: "Where the Answers Are"_
_attend WWRUG12 www.wwrug.com ARSlist: "Where the Answers Are"_

_attend WWRUG12 www.wwrug.com ARSlist: "Where the Answers Are"_

_attend WWRUG12 www.wwrug.com ARSlist: "Where the Answers Are"_
_attend WWRUG12 www.wwrug.com ARSlist: "Where the Answers Are"_

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John Baker
2012-01-11 23:02:28 UTC
Permalink
Hello,

I do wonder when the time will come when base/overlay/etc are replaced
with the simple concept of a script.

Converting existing workflow to a script is easy and much of the work
has already been done, ie converting client side workflow to Javascript
already exists in the Mid Tier.

Writing a server side workflow (filters/escalations/etc) to Javascript
is entirely feasible.

Once we find ourselves using Javascript, everything will run (far) more
quickly, AR System (with ITSM) would not require 1Gb of memory and 30
minutes to start, and a simple source control system can be used to
merge the BMC base application with a client's changes.

I've not met an AR System admin who can't fiddle with some script, so
perhaps AR System 8 should be the day BMC bite the bullet, eject the
current model and move to simple text based scripts:

function my_active_link():
if field(123) = "abc":
# Push value of field 456 on this form to another
push_fields(456, "Target form", 987)
set_fields(123, "X")
else:
change_label(9000, 'New value of my label')
set_read_only(9000, True)

Alright, so I prefer Python to Javascript but I suspect most ARSlisters
can follow the above.


John
Jose Huerta
2012-01-12 06:14:55 UTC
Permalink
I agree and don't. If you change active links and filters by some scripting
language, then ARS won't be ARS anymore.
Post by John Baker
Hello,
I do wonder when the time will come when base/overlay/etc are replaced
with the simple concept of a script.
Converting existing workflow to a script is easy and much of the work
has already been done, ie converting client side workflow to Javascript
already exists in the Mid Tier.
Writing a server side workflow (filters/escalations/etc) to Javascript
is entirely feasible.
Once we find ourselves using Javascript, everything will run (far) more
quickly, AR System (with ITSM) would not require 1Gb of memory and 30
minutes to start, and a simple source control system can be used to
merge the BMC base application with a client's changes.
I've not met an AR System admin who can't fiddle with some script, so
perhaps AR System 8 should be the day BMC bite the bullet, eject the
# Push value of field 456 on this form to another
push_fields(456, "Target form", 987)
set_fields(123, "X")
change_label(9000, 'New value of my label')
set_read_only(9000, True)
Alright, so I prefer Python to Javascript but I suspect most ARSlisters
can follow the above.
John
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Coleman, Gavin
2012-01-12 08:35:56 UTC
Permalink
I’ve got to say that I strongly disagree with this. I can certainly follow John’s script, but following and doing are two entirely different things. I have had very little formal training in “traditional” programming languages – a basic level .NET C# course and an Open University course is about my limit. However, I’m a damn good Remedy developer. I have just started to code in .NET and can see that it’s very powerful. Remedy tends to be more constrained.

An Active Link in Remedy is one object and when I open an Active Link visibly it is significantly easier for me to read the push fields actions in Developer Studio than it is for me to read John’s script. Remedy aids development and (mostly) helps by preventing them from having to remember valid Active Link syntax. .NET is great, but even simple things like forgetting a semi-colon can cause no end of bother!

Thanks,


Gavin Coleman
Senior Analyst/Programmer
Computacenter (UK) Ltd
Services & Solutions
Hatfield Avenue
Hatfield, Hertfordshire, AL10 9TW, United Kingdom
T: +44 (0) 1707 631662
E: ***@computacenter.com<mailto:***@computacenter.com>
W: www.computacenter.com<http://www.computacenter.com>

From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) [mailto:***@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Jose Huerta
Sent: 12 January 2012 06:15
To: ***@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: Overlay and Applications

** I agree and don't. If you change active links and filters by some scripting language, then ARS won't be ARS anymore.


On Thu, Jan 12, 2012 at 00:02, John Baker <***@javasystemsolutions.com<mailto:***@javasystemsolutions.com>> wrote:
Hello,

I do wonder when the time will come when base/overlay/etc are replaced
with the simple concept of a script.

Converting existing workflow to a script is easy and much of the work
has already been done, ie converting client side workflow to Javascript
already exists in the Mid Tier.

Writing a server side workflow (filters/escalations/etc) to Javascript
is entirely feasible.

Once we find ourselves using Javascript, everything will run (far) more
quickly, AR System (with ITSM) would not require 1Gb of memory and 30
minutes to start, and a simple source control system can be used to
merge the BMC base application with a client's changes.

I've not met an AR System admin who can't fiddle with some script, so
perhaps AR System 8 should be the day BMC bite the bullet, eject the
current model and move to simple text based scripts:

function my_active_link():
if field(123) = "abc":
# Push value of field 456 on this form to another
push_fields(456, "Target form", 987)
set_fields(123, "X")
else:
change_label(9000, 'New value of my label')
set_read_only(9000, True)

Alright, so I prefer Python to Javascript but I suspect most ARSlisters
can follow the above.


John

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_______________________________________________________________________________
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LJ LongWing
2012-01-12 15:19:10 UTC
Permalink
John,
I'm changing the topic as to not hijack the original thread.

You bring up an interesting thought. I was involved with a discussion with
MicroFocus (parent company of Borland, maker of SilkTest) regarding their
test generation application...it's a simple point/click interface, but you
can, if you choose, export the test script to any number of 'known'
languages including .net and java. Once in the script form you can modify,
edit, do anything you really want...but when it comes back to executing the
script, you run it through their 'agent'. The SilkTest 'server' is really
just a license management process to ensure you are not using more licenses
than you have purchased....so...this takes us to the concept you just
discussed

The power of Remedy is it's point and click interface to do things...one of
the strongest up and downsides (at the same time) is the central development
environment. While this central dev environment (the remedy server) allows
for a lack of 'merge' problems....the fact that the code is stored only in
the DB, and isn't easily manipulated outside of the GUI makes it sometimes
hard to do things like merge....

So I agree....if BMC modified Remedy to function so that everything is still
point and click easy to create the code, but allowed the option of exporting
the code to a standardized format like Java, then allowed modification of
that code at that level....and of course would need to be imported back in
to validate the changes were good....

Yea...I could totally see using Remedy like that. :)

-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:***@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of John Baker
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 4:02 PM
To: ***@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Overlay and Applications

Hello,

I do wonder when the time will come when base/overlay/etc are replaced
with the simple concept of a script.

Converting existing workflow to a script is easy and much of the work
has already been done, ie converting client side workflow to Javascript
already exists in the Mid Tier.

Writing a server side workflow (filters/escalations/etc) to Javascript
is entirely feasible.

Once we find ourselves using Javascript, everything will run (far) more
quickly, AR System (with ITSM) would not require 1Gb of memory and 30
minutes to start, and a simple source control system can be used to
merge the BMC base application with a client's changes.

I've not met an AR System admin who can't fiddle with some script, so
perhaps AR System 8 should be the day BMC bite the bullet, eject the
current model and move to simple text based scripts:

function my_active_link():
if field(123) = "abc":
# Push value of field 456 on this form to another
push_fields(456, "Target form", 987)
set_fields(123, "X")
else:
change_label(9000, 'New value of my label')
set_read_only(9000, True)

Alright, so I prefer Python to Javascript but I suspect most ARSlisters
can follow the above.


John

____________________________________________________________________________
___
UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org
attend wwrug12 www.wwrug12.com ARSList: "Where the Answers Are"
Pierson, Shawn
2012-01-12 15:38:01 UTC
Permalink
LJ,

Having worked some with SharePoint, I've seen how it could be advantageous to build an ITSM suite completely on that platform rather than using AR System. There are even tools that can be used within Visio to make workflow. Granted, to do the really complex stuff you need to be a .NET developer, but I've seen the direction Microsoft has been trying to push into and it's what AR System used to be geared for -- letting non-programmers quickly build enterprise applications. The only downside I see is that if you give enough people permissions to build things, I.T. will end up with the problem that Access caused where non-I.T. people made unwieldy databases with impractical forms that they then tell us to support. At least SharePoint has a permissions model. In any case, I think that it does great by allowing the full gamut of allowing end users to create simple forms and workflow, while highly skilled .NET developers can create highly complex, feature rich applications.

Unfortunately, Sharepoint itself is not cross-platform so it wouldn't work for BMC, but I'm really surprised that Microsoft hasn't released more applications that sit on top of Sharepoint at this time. The only OOtB Sharepoint based application I've used has been Project Web Access, but even that requires you to build some of your own stuff and use Microsoft Project in order to interact with the schedule. Still, I've seen some good third party stuff, and I think Sharepoint is probably a great tool to learn as a side project for anyone that prefers to focus on the development aspect of Remedy rather than ITSM administration.

This may sound like I'm a big fan of Microsoft, which I'm not, but I am impressed that they turned what started out as essentially web-based blog software into a diverse platform for web sites and applications. I just wish something similar that was cross platform and extremely popular existed.

Thanks,

Shawn Pierson

-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) [mailto:***@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of LJ LongWing
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2012 9:19 AM
To: ***@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Script Generation

John,
I'm changing the topic as to not hijack the original thread.

You bring up an interesting thought. I was involved with a discussion with
MicroFocus (parent company of Borland, maker of SilkTest) regarding their
test generation application...it's a simple point/click interface, but you
can, if you choose, export the test script to any number of 'known'
languages including .net and java. Once in the script form you can modify,
edit, do anything you really want...but when it comes back to executing the
script, you run it through their 'agent'. The SilkTest 'server' is really
just a license management process to ensure you are not using more licenses
than you have purchased....so...this takes us to the concept you just
discussed

The power of Remedy is it's point and click interface to do things...one of
the strongest up and downsides (at the same time) is the central development
environment. While this central dev environment (the remedy server) allows
for a lack of 'merge' problems....the fact that the code is stored only in
the DB, and isn't easily manipulated outside of the GUI makes it sometimes
hard to do things like merge....

So I agree....if BMC modified Remedy to function so that everything is still
point and click easy to create the code, but allowed the option of exporting
the code to a standardized format like Java, then allowed modification of
that code at that level....and of course would need to be imported back in
to validate the changes were good....

Yea...I could totally see using Remedy like that. :)

-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:***@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of John Baker
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 4:02 PM
To: ***@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Overlay and Applications

Hello,

I do wonder when the time will come when base/overlay/etc are replaced
with the simple concept of a script.

Converting existing workflow to a script is easy and much of the work
has already been done, ie converting client side workflow to Javascript
already exists in the Mid Tier.

Writing a server side workflow (filters/escalations/etc) to Javascript
is entirely feasible.

Once we find ourselves using Javascript, everything will run (far) more
quickly, AR System (with ITSM) would not require 1Gb of memory and 30
minutes to start, and a simple source control system can be used to
merge the BMC base application with a client's changes.

I've not met an AR System admin who can't fiddle with some script, so
perhaps AR System 8 should be the day BMC bite the bullet, eject the
current model and move to simple text based scripts:

function my_active_link():
if field(123) = "abc":
# Push value of field 456 on this form to another
push_fields(456, "Target form", 987)
set_fields(123, "X")
else:
change_label(9000, 'New value of my label')
set_read_only(9000, True)

Alright, so I prefer Python to Javascript but I suspect most ARSlisters
can follow the above.


John

____________________________________________________________________________
___
UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org
attend wwrug12 www.wwrug12.com ARSList: "Where the Answers Are"

_______________________________________________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org
attend wwrug12 www.wwrug12.com ARSList: "Where the Answers Are"

Private and confidential as detailed here: http://www.sug.com/disclaimers/default.htm#Mail . If you cannot access the link, please e-mail sender.
LJ LongWing
2012-01-12 15:56:13 UTC
Permalink
Remedy has this ability too....called plugins. You can build filter plugins
in Perl, Java, C....I'm sure a few others that I'm not familiar with. With
the API model, you can build entirely custom clients that do wondrous
things. All if this is wonderful and great and all....but I think what John
was talking about was not the ability to extend Remedy...but the ability to
turn what is currently records in a DB into some form of industry recognized
script/code.

How many times have you had to answer the question of 'how many lines of
code would it take to implement this feature' with a 'it's not like that'
type of answer. I would love to be able to have the ability to create a
filter (just like I do today) and then be able to export that to
'code'....not a def, not an xml def...but actual code that could be read
somewhere.

Granted, that code wouldn't be able to be executed by anything other than
the Remedy server engine....but it would at least be code that could be read
by Remedy and generated by Remedy...but also coded OUTSIDE of Remedy if you
wanted to, but still read by Remedy.

-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:***@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Pierson, Shawn
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2012 8:38 AM
To: ***@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: Script Generation

LJ,

Having worked some with SharePoint, I've seen how it could be advantageous
to build an ITSM suite completely on that platform rather than using AR
System. There are even tools that can be used within Visio to make
workflow. Granted, to do the really complex stuff you need to be a .NET
developer, but I've seen the direction Microsoft has been trying to push
into and it's what AR System used to be geared for -- letting
non-programmers quickly build enterprise applications. The only downside I
see is that if you give enough people permissions to build things, I.T. will
end up with the problem that Access caused where non-I.T. people made
unwieldy databases with impractical forms that they then tell us to support.
At least SharePoint has a permissions model. In any case, I think that it
does great by allowing the full gamut of allowing end users to create simple
forms and workflow, while highly skilled .NET developers can create highly
complex, feature rich applications.

Unfortunately, Sharepoint itself is not cross-platform so it wouldn't work
for BMC, but I'm really surprised that Microsoft hasn't released more
applications that sit on top of Sharepoint at this time. The only OOtB
Sharepoint based application I've used has been Project Web Access, but even
that requires you to build some of your own stuff and use Microsoft Project
in order to interact with the schedule. Still, I've seen some good third
party stuff, and I think Sharepoint is probably a great tool to learn as a
side project for anyone that prefers to focus on the development aspect of
Remedy rather than ITSM administration.

This may sound like I'm a big fan of Microsoft, which I'm not, but I am
impressed that they turned what started out as essentially web-based blog
software into a diverse platform for web sites and applications. I just
wish something similar that was cross platform and extremely popular
existed.

Thanks,

Shawn Pierson

-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:***@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of LJ LongWing
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2012 9:19 AM
To: ***@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Script Generation

John,
I'm changing the topic as to not hijack the original thread.

You bring up an interesting thought. I was involved with a discussion with
MicroFocus (parent company of Borland, maker of SilkTest) regarding their
test generation application...it's a simple point/click interface, but you
can, if you choose, export the test script to any number of 'known'
languages including .net and java. Once in the script form you can modify,
edit, do anything you really want...but when it comes back to executing the
script, you run it through their 'agent'. The SilkTest 'server' is really
just a license management process to ensure you are not using more licenses
than you have purchased....so...this takes us to the concept you just
discussed

The power of Remedy is it's point and click interface to do things...one of
the strongest up and downsides (at the same time) is the central development
environment. While this central dev environment (the remedy server) allows
for a lack of 'merge' problems....the fact that the code is stored only in
the DB, and isn't easily manipulated outside of the GUI makes it sometimes
hard to do things like merge....

So I agree....if BMC modified Remedy to function so that everything is still
point and click easy to create the code, but allowed the option of exporting
the code to a standardized format like Java, then allowed modification of
that code at that level....and of course would need to be imported back in
to validate the changes were good....

Yea...I could totally see using Remedy like that. :)

-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:***@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of John Baker
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 4:02 PM
To: ***@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Overlay and Applications

Hello,

I do wonder when the time will come when base/overlay/etc are replaced
with the simple concept of a script.

Converting existing workflow to a script is easy and much of the work
has already been done, ie converting client side workflow to Javascript
already exists in the Mid Tier.

Writing a server side workflow (filters/escalations/etc) to Javascript
is entirely feasible.

Once we find ourselves using Javascript, everything will run (far) more
quickly, AR System (with ITSM) would not require 1Gb of memory and 30
minutes to start, and a simple source control system can be used to
merge the BMC base application with a client's changes.

I've not met an AR System admin who can't fiddle with some script, so
perhaps AR System 8 should be the day BMC bite the bullet, eject the
current model and move to simple text based scripts:

function my_active_link():
if field(123) = "abc":
# Push value of field 456 on this form to another
push_fields(456, "Target form", 987)
set_fields(123, "X")
else:
change_label(9000, 'New value of my label')
set_read_only(9000, True)

Alright, so I prefer Python to Javascript but I suspect most ARSlisters
can follow the above.


John

____________________________________________________________________________
___
UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org
attend wwrug12 www.wwrug12.com ARSList: "Where the Answers Are"

____________________________________________________________________________
___
UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org
attend wwrug12 www.wwrug12.com ARSList: "Where the Answers Are"

Private and confidential as detailed here:
http://www.sug.com/disclaimers/default.htm#Mail . If you cannot access the
link, please e-mail sender.

____________________________________________________________________________
___
UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org
attend wwrug12 www.wwrug12.com ARSList: "Where the Answers Are"
Pierson, Shawn
2012-01-12 18:49:30 UTC
Permalink
LJ,

I agree that you can do this to an extent within Remedy (although I don't agree with plugins for most things because it takes code outside of Remedy just like using stored procedures.) When I was consulting, I remember one application using some stored procedures within the database, some Perl on the server called from filters, and I even had to build some VB 6 code in DLLs called via OLE within the Windows User Tool. Supporting that system would have required someone with decent SQL, Perl, VB 6, and AR System development skills. Even then, it would have been difficult to troubleshoot had something gone wrong.

Anyway I know you weren't arguing in favor of using plugins necessarily, and I do agree with you about the benefits of being able to edit Remedy objects via a text interface. I was just trying to point out that I think SharePoint is closer to that model than anything else out there right now. While there are downsides to SharePoint as Axton pointed out, I think it's a step in the right direction from a development standpoint.

BMC seems to be going further away from AR System as a development platform, so I don't see them really putting much more effort into expanding AR System functionality except when forced to. I suspect that the only reason for the Overlay functionality, for example, was because BMC wanted to move more people to Remedy On Demand, and the Overlays meet the requirement of 1) having standard OOtB applications that BMC controls and upgrades all at once, at and 2) at the same time allowing the flexibility to modify the applications to meet your business needs. I really don't think that AR System as a development platform is their focus at all except as a way to modify and extend the OOtB suite.

Thanks,

Shawn Pierson

-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) [mailto:***@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of LJ LongWing
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2012 9:56 AM
To: ***@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: Script Generation

Remedy has this ability too....called plugins. You can build filter plugins
in Perl, Java, C....I'm sure a few others that I'm not familiar with. With
the API model, you can build entirely custom clients that do wondrous
things. All if this is wonderful and great and all....but I think what John
was talking about was not the ability to extend Remedy...but the ability to
turn what is currently records in a DB into some form of industry recognized
script/code.

How many times have you had to answer the question of 'how many lines of
code would it take to implement this feature' with a 'it's not like that'
type of answer. I would love to be able to have the ability to create a
filter (just like I do today) and then be able to export that to
'code'....not a def, not an xml def...but actual code that could be read
somewhere.

Granted, that code wouldn't be able to be executed by anything other than
the Remedy server engine....but it would at least be code that could be read
by Remedy and generated by Remedy...but also coded OUTSIDE of Remedy if you
wanted to, but still read by Remedy.

-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:***@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Pierson, Shawn
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2012 8:38 AM
To: ***@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: Script Generation

LJ,

Having worked some with SharePoint, I've seen how it could be advantageous
to build an ITSM suite completely on that platform rather than using AR
System. There are even tools that can be used within Visio to make
workflow. Granted, to do the really complex stuff you need to be a .NET
developer, but I've seen the direction Microsoft has been trying to push
into and it's what AR System used to be geared for -- letting
non-programmers quickly build enterprise applications. The only downside I
see is that if you give enough people permissions to build things, I.T. will
end up with the problem that Access caused where non-I.T. people made
unwieldy databases with impractical forms that they then tell us to support.
At least SharePoint has a permissions model. In any case, I think that it
does great by allowing the full gamut of allowing end users to create simple
forms and workflow, while highly skilled .NET developers can create highly
complex, feature rich applications.

Unfortunately, Sharepoint itself is not cross-platform so it wouldn't work
for BMC, but I'm really surprised that Microsoft hasn't released more
applications that sit on top of Sharepoint at this time. The only OOtB
Sharepoint based application I've used has been Project Web Access, but even
that requires you to build some of your own stuff and use Microsoft Project
in order to interact with the schedule. Still, I've seen some good third
party stuff, and I think Sharepoint is probably a great tool to learn as a
side project for anyone that prefers to focus on the development aspect of
Remedy rather than ITSM administration.

This may sound like I'm a big fan of Microsoft, which I'm not, but I am
impressed that they turned what started out as essentially web-based blog
software into a diverse platform for web sites and applications. I just
wish something similar that was cross platform and extremely popular
existed.

Thanks,

Shawn Pierson

-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:***@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of LJ LongWing
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2012 9:19 AM
To: ***@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Script Generation

John,
I'm changing the topic as to not hijack the original thread.

You bring up an interesting thought. I was involved with a discussion with
MicroFocus (parent company of Borland, maker of SilkTest) regarding their
test generation application...it's a simple point/click interface, but you
can, if you choose, export the test script to any number of 'known'
languages including .net and java. Once in the script form you can modify,
edit, do anything you really want...but when it comes back to executing the
script, you run it through their 'agent'. The SilkTest 'server' is really
just a license management process to ensure you are not using more licenses
than you have purchased....so...this takes us to the concept you just
discussed

The power of Remedy is it's point and click interface to do things...one of
the strongest up and downsides (at the same time) is the central development
environment. While this central dev environment (the remedy server) allows
for a lack of 'merge' problems....the fact that the code is stored only in
the DB, and isn't easily manipulated outside of the GUI makes it sometimes
hard to do things like merge....

So I agree....if BMC modified Remedy to function so that everything is still
point and click easy to create the code, but allowed the option of exporting
the code to a standardized format like Java, then allowed modification of
that code at that level....and of course would need to be imported back in
to validate the changes were good....

Yea...I could totally see using Remedy like that. :)

-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:***@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of John Baker
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 4:02 PM
To: ***@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Overlay and Applications

Hello,

I do wonder when the time will come when base/overlay/etc are replaced
with the simple concept of a script.

Converting existing workflow to a script is easy and much of the work
has already been done, ie converting client side workflow to Javascript
already exists in the Mid Tier.

Writing a server side workflow (filters/escalations/etc) to Javascript
is entirely feasible.

Once we find ourselves using Javascript, everything will run (far) more
quickly, AR System (with ITSM) would not require 1Gb of memory and 30
minutes to start, and a simple source control system can be used to
merge the BMC base application with a client's changes.

I've not met an AR System admin who can't fiddle with some script, so
perhaps AR System 8 should be the day BMC bite the bullet, eject the
current model and move to simple text based scripts:

function my_active_link():
if field(123) = "abc":
# Push value of field 456 on this form to another
push_fields(456, "Target form", 987)
set_fields(123, "X")
else:
change_label(9000, 'New value of my label')
set_read_only(9000, True)

Alright, so I prefer Python to Javascript but I suspect most ARSlisters
can follow the above.


John

____________________________________________________________________________
___
UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org
attend wwrug12 www.wwrug12.com ARSList: "Where the Answers Are"

____________________________________________________________________________
___
UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org
attend wwrug12 www.wwrug12.com ARSList: "Where the Answers Are"

Private and confidential as detailed here:
http://www.sug.com/disclaimers/default.htm#Mail . If you cannot access the
link, please e-mail sender.

____________________________________________________________________________
___
UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org
attend wwrug12 www.wwrug12.com ARSList: "Where the Answers Are"

_______________________________________________________________________________
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Jose Huerta
2012-01-12 20:55:24 UTC
Permalink
Remedy has one great advantage, it is very easy to create new easy
applications. It is as easy as creating them in MS Access. Also if you
follow a few rules, you don't need to care about concurrency, security, and
a lot of best practice that a Java or .Net developer must consider.

As I published in my post:
http://theremedyforit.com/2012/01/three-layers-programming-technique-for-bmc-remedy-ars/
,
Remedy forces you to follow best practices for programming.

Have you tried to develop and application to be placed in a server farm to
provide service to hundreds of clients in Java? Even when using corporate
editions (like J2EE), it is a very confusing thing. concurrency,
transaction control, permissions, ... are a lot of things that the
programmer must consider when writing the code.

When you write a PUSH action Remedy does a lot of things, not only
accessing the table and writing the result. So it can't be translated to a
single line of code. Execution filter phases control for instance is
performed at every step.

As I stated before, if you change the remedy workflow model, then you won't
obtain Remedy, it will be another different thing.

But I think that there are some places where scripting language (in the
style of VBA) can be usefull and don't compromise the robustness of the
model. For instance create functions that can be used in SET actions. In
Spain we have a personal ID number that contains a control letter. There
are functions that can check if an ID number is correct or has some error,
using this control letter. Programming this function in Remedy is almost
impossible. Programming it in VBA or javascript is very easy (and you have
a lot of code available on Internet).

This script for functions could simplify a lot of complex Remedy workflows.

Regards,

Jose M. Huerta
http://theremedyforit.com/
Post by Pierson, Shawn
LJ,
I agree that you can do this to an extent within Remedy (although I don't
agree with plugins for most things because it takes code outside of Remedy
just like using stored procedures.) When I was consulting, I remember one
application using some stored procedures within the database, some Perl on
the server called from filters, and I even had to build some VB 6 code in
DLLs called via OLE within the Windows User Tool. Supporting that system
would have required someone with decent SQL, Perl, VB 6, and AR System
development skills. Even then, it would have been difficult to
troubleshoot had something gone wrong.
Anyway I know you weren't arguing in favor of using plugins necessarily,
and I do agree with you about the benefits of being able to edit Remedy
objects via a text interface. I was just trying to point out that I think
SharePoint is closer to that model than anything else out there right now.
While there are downsides to SharePoint as Axton pointed out, I think it's
a step in the right direction from a development standpoint.
BMC seems to be going further away from AR System as a development
platform, so I don't see them really putting much more effort into
expanding AR System functionality except when forced to. I suspect that
the only reason for the Overlay functionality, for example, was because BMC
wanted to move more people to Remedy On Demand, and the Overlays meet the
requirement of 1) having standard OOtB applications that BMC controls and
upgrades all at once, at and 2) at the same time allowing the flexibility
to modify the applications to meet your business needs. I really don't
think that AR System as a development platform is their focus at all except
as a way to modify and extend the OOtB suite.
Thanks,
Shawn Pierson
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2012 9:56 AM
Subject: Re: Script Generation
Remedy has this ability too....called plugins. You can build filter plugins
in Perl, Java, C....I'm sure a few others that I'm not familiar with. With
the API model, you can build entirely custom clients that do wondrous
things. All if this is wonderful and great and all....but I think what John
was talking about was not the ability to extend Remedy...but the ability to
turn what is currently records in a DB into some form of industry recognized
script/code.
How many times have you had to answer the question of 'how many lines of
code would it take to implement this feature' with a 'it's not like that'
type of answer. I would love to be able to have the ability to create a
filter (just like I do today) and then be able to export that to
'code'....not a def, not an xml def...but actual code that could be read
somewhere.
Granted, that code wouldn't be able to be executed by anything other than
the Remedy server engine....but it would at least be code that could be read
by Remedy and generated by Remedy...but also coded OUTSIDE of Remedy if you
wanted to, but still read by Remedy.
-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2012 8:38 AM
Subject: Re: Script Generation
LJ,
Having worked some with SharePoint, I've seen how it could be advantageous
to build an ITSM suite completely on that platform rather than using AR
System. There are even tools that can be used within Visio to make
workflow. Granted, to do the really complex stuff you need to be a .NET
developer, but I've seen the direction Microsoft has been trying to push
into and it's what AR System used to be geared for -- letting
non-programmers quickly build enterprise applications. The only downside I
see is that if you give enough people permissions to build things, I.T. will
end up with the problem that Access caused where non-I.T. people made
unwieldy databases with impractical forms that they then tell us to support.
At least SharePoint has a permissions model. In any case, I think that it
does great by allowing the full gamut of allowing end users to create simple
forms and workflow, while highly skilled .NET developers can create highly
complex, feature rich applications.
Unfortunately, Sharepoint itself is not cross-platform so it wouldn't work
for BMC, but I'm really surprised that Microsoft hasn't released more
applications that sit on top of Sharepoint at this time. The only OOtB
Sharepoint based application I've used has been Project Web Access, but even
that requires you to build some of your own stuff and use Microsoft Project
in order to interact with the schedule. Still, I've seen some good third
party stuff, and I think Sharepoint is probably a great tool to learn as a
side project for anyone that prefers to focus on the development aspect of
Remedy rather than ITSM administration.
This may sound like I'm a big fan of Microsoft, which I'm not, but I am
impressed that they turned what started out as essentially web-based blog
software into a diverse platform for web sites and applications. I just
wish something similar that was cross platform and extremely popular
existed.
Thanks,
Shawn Pierson
-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2012 9:19 AM
Subject: Script Generation
John,
I'm changing the topic as to not hijack the original thread.
You bring up an interesting thought. I was involved with a discussion with
MicroFocus (parent company of Borland, maker of SilkTest) regarding their
test generation application...it's a simple point/click interface, but you
can, if you choose, export the test script to any number of 'known'
languages including .net and java. Once in the script form you can modify,
edit, do anything you really want...but when it comes back to executing the
script, you run it through their 'agent'. The SilkTest 'server' is really
just a license management process to ensure you are not using more licenses
than you have purchased....so...this takes us to the concept you just
discussed
The power of Remedy is it's point and click interface to do things...one of
the strongest up and downsides (at the same time) is the central development
environment. While this central dev environment (the remedy server) allows
for a lack of 'merge' problems....the fact that the code is stored only in
the DB, and isn't easily manipulated outside of the GUI makes it sometimes
hard to do things like merge....
So I agree....if BMC modified Remedy to function so that everything is still
point and click easy to create the code, but allowed the option of exporting
the code to a standardized format like Java, then allowed modification of
that code at that level....and of course would need to be imported back in
to validate the changes were good....
Yea...I could totally see using Remedy like that. :)
-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 4:02 PM
Subject: Overlay and Applications
Hello,
I do wonder when the time will come when base/overlay/etc are replaced
with the simple concept of a script.
Converting existing workflow to a script is easy and much of the work
has already been done, ie converting client side workflow to Javascript
already exists in the Mid Tier.
Writing a server side workflow (filters/escalations/etc) to Javascript
is entirely feasible.
Once we find ourselves using Javascript, everything will run (far) more
quickly, AR System (with ITSM) would not require 1Gb of memory and 30
minutes to start, and a simple source control system can be used to
merge the BMC base application with a client's changes.
I've not met an AR System admin who can't fiddle with some script, so
perhaps AR System 8 should be the day BMC bite the bullet, eject the
# Push value of field 456 on this form to another
push_fields(456, "Target form", 987)
set_fields(123, "X")
change_label(9000, 'New value of my label')
set_read_only(9000, True)
Alright, so I prefer Python to Javascript but I suspect most ARSlisters
can follow the above.
John
____________________________________________________________________________
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link, please e-mail sender.
____________________________________________________________________________
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attend wwrug12 www.wwrug12.com ARSList: "Where the Answers Are"
http://www.sug.com/disclaimers/default.htm#Mail . If you cannot access
the link, please e-mail sender.
_______________________________________________________________________________
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attend wwrug12 www.wwrug12.com ARSList: "Where the Answers Are"
_______________________________________________________________________________
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LJ LongWing
2012-01-12 21:24:57 UTC
Permalink
On the ‘function’ note
it’s actually relatively easy to program that
with a filter plugin
yes it steps out of Remedy, but Remedy supports it J



From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) [mailto:***@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Jose Huerta
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2012 1:55 PM
To: ***@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: Script Generation



** Remedy has one great advantage, it is very easy to create new easy applications. It is as easy as creating them in MS Access. Also if you follow a few rules, you don't need to care about concurrency, security, and a lot of best practice that a Java or .Net developer must consider.



As I published in my post: http://theremedyforit.com/2012/01/three-layers-programming-technique-for-bmc-remedy-ars/ , Remedy forces you to follow best practices for programming.



Have you tried to develop and application to be placed in a server farm to provide service to hundreds of clients in Java? Even when using corporate editions (like J2EE), it is a very confusing thing. concurrency, transaction control, permissions, ... are a lot of things that the programmer must consider when writing the code.



When you write a PUSH action Remedy does a lot of things, not only accessing the table and writing the result. So it can't be translated to a single line of code. Execution filter phases control for instance is performed at every step.



As I stated before, if you change the remedy workflow model, then you won't obtain Remedy, it will be another different thing.



But I think that there are some places where scripting language (in the style of VBA) can be usefull and don't compromise the robustness of the model. For instance create functions that can be used in SET actions. In Spain we have a personal ID number that contains a control letter. There are functions that can check if an ID number is correct or has some error, using this control letter. Programming this function in Remedy is almost impossible. Programming it in VBA or javascript is very easy (and you have a lot of code available on Internet).



This script for functions could simplify a lot of complex Remedy workflows.



Regards,



Jose M. Huerta

http://theremedyforit.com/










On Thu, Jan 12, 2012 at 19:49, Pierson, Shawn <***@sug.com> wrote:

LJ,

I agree that you can do this to an extent within Remedy (although I don't agree with plugins for most things because it takes code outside of Remedy just like using stored procedures.) When I was consulting, I remember one application using some stored procedures within the database, some Perl on the server called from filters, and I even had to build some VB 6 code in DLLs called via OLE within the Windows User Tool. Supporting that system would have required someone with decent SQL, Perl, VB 6, and AR System development skills. Even then, it would have been difficult to troubleshoot had something gone wrong.

Anyway I know you weren't arguing in favor of using plugins necessarily, and I do agree with you about the benefits of being able to edit Remedy objects via a text interface. I was just trying to point out that I think SharePoint is closer to that model than anything else out there right now. While there are downsides to SharePoint as Axton pointed out, I think it's a step in the right direction from a development standpoint.

BMC seems to be going further away from AR System as a development platform, so I don't see them really putting much more effort into expanding AR System functionality except when forced to. I suspect that the only reason for the Overlay functionality, for example, was because BMC wanted to move more people to Remedy On Demand, and the Overlays meet the requirement of 1) having standard OOtB applications that BMC controls and upgrades all at once, at and 2) at the same time allowing the flexibility to modify the applications to meet your business needs. I really don't think that AR System as a development platform is their focus at all except as a way to modify and extend the OOtB suite.


Thanks,

Shawn Pierson

-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) [mailto:***@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of LJ LongWing

Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2012 9:56 AM
To: ***@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: Script Generation

Remedy has this ability too....called plugins. You can build filter plugins
in Perl, Java, C....I'm sure a few others that I'm not familiar with. With
the API model, you can build entirely custom clients that do wondrous
things. All if this is wonderful and great and all....but I think what John
was talking about was not the ability to extend Remedy...but the ability to
turn what is currently records in a DB into some form of industry recognized
script/code.

How many times have you had to answer the question of 'how many lines of
code would it take to implement this feature' with a 'it's not like that'
type of answer. I would love to be able to have the ability to create a
filter (just like I do today) and then be able to export that to
'code'....not a def, not an xml def...but actual code that could be read
somewhere.

Granted, that code wouldn't be able to be executed by anything other than
the Remedy server engine....but it would at least be code that could be read
by Remedy and generated by Remedy...but also coded OUTSIDE of Remedy if you
wanted to, but still read by Remedy.

-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:***@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Pierson, Shawn
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2012 8:38 AM
To: ***@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: Script Generation

LJ,

Having worked some with SharePoint, I've seen how it could be advantageous
to build an ITSM suite completely on that platform rather than using AR
System. There are even tools that can be used within Visio to make
workflow. Granted, to do the really complex stuff you need to be a .NET
developer, but I've seen the direction Microsoft has been trying to push
into and it's what AR System used to be geared for -- letting
non-programmers quickly build enterprise applications. The only downside I
see is that if you give enough people permissions to build things, I.T. will
end up with the problem that Access caused where non-I.T. people made
unwieldy databases with impractical forms that they then tell us to support.
At least SharePoint has a permissions model. In any case, I think that it
does great by allowing the full gamut of allowing end users to create simple
forms and workflow, while highly skilled .NET developers can create highly
complex, feature rich applications.

Unfortunately, Sharepoint itself is not cross-platform so it wouldn't work
for BMC, but I'm really surprised that Microsoft hasn't released more
applications that sit on top of Sharepoint at this time. The only OOtB
Sharepoint based application I've used has been Project Web Access, but even
that requires you to build some of your own stuff and use Microsoft Project
in order to interact with the schedule. Still, I've seen some good third
party stuff, and I think Sharepoint is probably a great tool to learn as a
side project for anyone that prefers to focus on the development aspect of
Remedy rather than ITSM administration.

This may sound like I'm a big fan of Microsoft, which I'm not, but I am
impressed that they turned what started out as essentially web-based blog
software into a diverse platform for web sites and applications. I just
wish something similar that was cross platform and extremely popular
existed.

Thanks,

Shawn Pierson

-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:***@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of LJ LongWing
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2012 9:19 AM
To: ***@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Script Generation

John,
I'm changing the topic as to not hijack the original thread.

You bring up an interesting thought. I was involved with a discussion with
MicroFocus (parent company of Borland, maker of SilkTest) regarding their
test generation application...it's a simple point/click interface, but you
can, if you choose, export the test script to any number of 'known'
languages including .net and java. Once in the script form you can modify,
edit, do anything you really want...but when it comes back to executing the
script, you run it through their 'agent'. The SilkTest 'server' is really
just a license management process to ensure you are not using more licenses
than you have purchased....so...this takes us to the concept you just
discussed

The power of Remedy is it's point and click interface to do things...one of
the strongest up and downsides (at the same time) is the central development
environment. While this central dev environment (the remedy server) allows
for a lack of 'merge' problems....the fact that the code is stored only in
the DB, and isn't easily manipulated outside of the GUI makes it sometimes
hard to do things like merge....

So I agree....if BMC modified Remedy to function so that everything is still
point and click easy to create the code, but allowed the option of exporting
the code to a standardized format like Java, then allowed modification of
that code at that level....and of course would need to be imported back in
to validate the changes were good....

Yea...I could totally see using Remedy like that. :)

-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:***@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of John Baker
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 4:02 PM
To: ***@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Overlay and Applications

Hello,

I do wonder when the time will come when base/overlay/etc are replaced
with the simple concept of a script.

Converting existing workflow to a script is easy and much of the work
has already been done, ie converting client side workflow to Javascript
already exists in the Mid Tier.

Writing a server side workflow (filters/escalations/etc) to Javascript
is entirely feasible.

Once we find ourselves using Javascript, everything will run (far) more
quickly, AR System (with ITSM) would not require 1Gb of memory and 30
minutes to start, and a simple source control system can be used to
merge the BMC base application with a client's changes.

I've not met an AR System admin who can't fiddle with some script, so
perhaps AR System 8 should be the day BMC bite the bullet, eject the
current model and move to simple text based scripts:

function my_active_link():
if field(123) = "abc":
# Push value of field 456 on this form to another
push_fields(456, "Target form", 987)
set_fields(123, "X")
else:
change_label(9000, 'New value of my label')
set_read_only(9000, True)

Alright, so I prefer Python to Javascript but I suspect most ARSlisters
can follow the above.


John

____________________________________________________________________________
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Private and confidential as detailed here:
http://www.sug.com/disclaimers/default.htm#Mail . If you cannot access the
link, please e-mail sender.

____________________________________________________________________________
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_______________________________________________________________________________
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Jason Miller
2012-01-12 21:37:51 UTC
Permalink
Maybe not as elegant as a filter plugin but we use a Run Process to call a
script (.vbs, bat, whatever) when we need to make functions (phone number
format/validation is one).

Jason
**
On the ‘function’ note…it’s actually relatively easy to program that…with
a filter plugin…yes it steps out of Remedy, but Remedy supports it J****
** **
*Sent:* Thursday, January 12, 2012 1:55 PM
*Subject:* Re: Script Generation****
** **
** Remedy has one great advantage, it is very easy to create new easy
applications. It is as easy as creating them in MS Access. Also if you
follow a few rules, you don't need to care about concurrency, security, and
a lot of best practice that a Java or .Net developer must consider.****
** **
http://theremedyforit.com/2012/01/three-layers-programming-technique-for-bmc-remedy-ars/ ,
Remedy forces you to follow best practices for programming.****
** **
Have you tried to develop and application to be placed in a server farm to
provide service to hundreds of clients in Java? Even when using corporate
editions (like J2EE), it is a very confusing thing. concurrency,
transaction control, permissions, ... are a lot of things that the
programmer must consider when writing the code.****
** **
When you write a PUSH action Remedy does a lot of things, not only
accessing the table and writing the result. So it can't be translated to a
single line of code. Execution filter phases control for instance is
performed at every step.****
** **
As I stated before, if you change the remedy workflow model, then you
won't obtain Remedy, it will be another different thing.****
** **
But I think that there are some places where scripting language (in the
style of VBA) can be usefull and don't compromise the robustness of the
model. For instance create functions that can be used in SET actions. In
Spain we have a personal ID number that contains a control letter. There
are functions that can check if an ID number is correct or has some error,
using this control letter. Programming this function in Remedy is almost
impossible. Programming it in VBA or javascript is very easy (and you have
a lot of code available on Internet). ****
** **
This script for functions could simplify a lot of complex Remedy workflows.
****
** **
Regards,****
** **
Jose M. Huerta****
http://theremedyforit.com/ ****
****
** **
** **
wrote:****
LJ,
I agree that you can do this to an extent within Remedy (although I don't
agree with plugins for most things because it takes code outside of Remedy
just like using stored procedures.) When I was consulting, I remember one
application using some stored procedures within the database, some Perl on
the server called from filters, and I even had to build some VB 6 code in
DLLs called via OLE within the Windows User Tool. Supporting that system
would have required someone with decent SQL, Perl, VB 6, and AR System
development skills. Even then, it would have been difficult to
troubleshoot had something gone wrong.
Anyway I know you weren't arguing in favor of using plugins necessarily,
and I do agree with you about the benefits of being able to edit Remedy
objects via a text interface. I was just trying to point out that I think
SharePoint is closer to that model than anything else out there right now.
While there are downsides to SharePoint as Axton pointed out, I think it's
a step in the right direction from a development standpoint.
BMC seems to be going further away from AR System as a development
platform, so I don't see them really putting much more effort into
expanding AR System functionality except when forced to. I suspect that
the only reason for the Overlay functionality, for example, was because BMC
wanted to move more people to Remedy On Demand, and the Overlays meet the
requirement of 1) having standard OOtB applications that BMC controls and
upgrades all at once, at and 2) at the same time allowing the flexibility
to modify the applications to meet your business needs. I really don't
think that AR System as a development platform is their focus at all except
as a way to modify and extend the OOtB suite.****
Thanks,
Shawn Pierson
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2012 9:56 AM
Subject: Re: Script Generation
Remedy has this ability too....called plugins. You can build filter plugins
in Perl, Java, C....I'm sure a few others that I'm not familiar with. With
the API model, you can build entirely custom clients that do wondrous
things. All if this is wonderful and great and all....but I think what John
was talking about was not the ability to extend Remedy...but the ability to
turn what is currently records in a DB into some form of industry recognized
script/code.
How many times have you had to answer the question of 'how many lines of
code would it take to implement this feature' with a 'it's not like that'
type of answer. I would love to be able to have the ability to create a
filter (just like I do today) and then be able to export that to
'code'....not a def, not an xml def...but actual code that could be read
somewhere.
Granted, that code wouldn't be able to be executed by anything other than
the Remedy server engine....but it would at least be code that could be read
by Remedy and generated by Remedy...but also coded OUTSIDE of Remedy if you
wanted to, but still read by Remedy.
-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2012 8:38 AM
Subject: Re: Script Generation
LJ,
Having worked some with SharePoint, I've seen how it could be advantageous
to build an ITSM suite completely on that platform rather than using AR
System. There are even tools that can be used within Visio to make
workflow. Granted, to do the really complex stuff you need to be a .NET
developer, but I've seen the direction Microsoft has been trying to push
into and it's what AR System used to be geared for -- letting
non-programmers quickly build enterprise applications. The only downside I
see is that if you give enough people permissions to build things, I.T. will
end up with the problem that Access caused where non-I.T. people made
unwieldy databases with impractical forms that they then tell us to support.
At least SharePoint has a permissions model. In any case, I think that it
does great by allowing the full gamut of allowing end users to create simple
forms and workflow, while highly skilled .NET developers can create highly
complex, feature rich applications.
Unfortunately, Sharepoint itself is not cross-platform so it wouldn't work
for BMC, but I'm really surprised that Microsoft hasn't released more
applications that sit on top of Sharepoint at this time. The only OOtB
Sharepoint based application I've used has been Project Web Access, but even
that requires you to build some of your own stuff and use Microsoft Project
in order to interact with the schedule. Still, I've seen some good third
party stuff, and I think Sharepoint is probably a great tool to learn as a
side project for anyone that prefers to focus on the development aspect of
Remedy rather than ITSM administration.
This may sound like I'm a big fan of Microsoft, which I'm not, but I am
impressed that they turned what started out as essentially web-based blog
software into a diverse platform for web sites and applications. I just
wish something similar that was cross platform and extremely popular
existed.
Thanks,
Shawn Pierson
-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2012 9:19 AM
Subject: Script Generation
John,
I'm changing the topic as to not hijack the original thread.
You bring up an interesting thought. I was involved with a discussion with
MicroFocus (parent company of Borland, maker of SilkTest) regarding their
test generation application...it's a simple point/click interface, but you
can, if you choose, export the test script to any number of 'known'
languages including .net and java. Once in the script form you can modify,
edit, do anything you really want...but when it comes back to executing the
script, you run it through their 'agent'. The SilkTest 'server' is really
just a license management process to ensure you are not using more licenses
than you have purchased....so...this takes us to the concept you just
discussed
The power of Remedy is it's point and click interface to do things...one of
the strongest up and downsides (at the same time) is the central development
environment. While this central dev environment (the remedy server) allows
for a lack of 'merge' problems....the fact that the code is stored only in
the DB, and isn't easily manipulated outside of the GUI makes it sometimes
hard to do things like merge....
So I agree....if BMC modified Remedy to function so that everything is still
point and click easy to create the code, but allowed the option of exporting
the code to a standardized format like Java, then allowed modification of
that code at that level....and of course would need to be imported back in
to validate the changes were good....
Yea...I could totally see using Remedy like that. :)
-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 4:02 PM
Subject: Overlay and Applications
Hello,
I do wonder when the time will come when base/overlay/etc are replaced
with the simple concept of a script.
Converting existing workflow to a script is easy and much of the work
has already been done, ie converting client side workflow to Javascript
already exists in the Mid Tier.
Writing a server side workflow (filters/escalations/etc) to Javascript
is entirely feasible.
Once we find ourselves using Javascript, everything will run (far) more
quickly, AR System (with ITSM) would not require 1Gb of memory and 30
minutes to start, and a simple source control system can be used to
merge the BMC base application with a client's changes.
I've not met an AR System admin who can't fiddle with some script, so
perhaps AR System 8 should be the day BMC bite the bullet, eject the
# Push value of field 456 on this form to another
push_fields(456, "Target form", 987)
set_fields(123, "X")
change_label(9000, 'New value of my label')
set_read_only(9000, True)
Alright, so I prefer Python to Javascript but I suspect most ARSlisters
can follow the above.
John
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Jose Huerta
2012-01-12 22:03:59 UTC
Permalink
Yes you can, but it is not Remedy. Remedy can "Integrate" with external
code. And also this is only available on the server. So to validate a phone
number you must call a service filter. That's is an unnecessary overhead.
This validation can be performed at the presentation layer while the user
inputs the characters. It must be done also at the business logic layer,
but when saving.

I'm talking about some easy scripting language to create deterministic
isolated functions.
** Maybe not as elegant as a filter plugin but we use a Run Process to
call a script (.vbs, bat, whatever) when we need to make functions (phone
number format/validation is one).
Jason
Post by LJ LongWing
**
On the ‘function’ note
it’s actually relatively easy to program that
with
a filter plugin
yes it steps out of Remedy, but Remedy supports it J****
** **
*Sent:* Thursday, January 12, 2012 1:55 PM
*Subject:* Re: Script Generation****
** **
** Remedy has one great advantage, it is very easy to create new easy
applications. It is as easy as creating them in MS Access. Also if you
follow a few rules, you don't need to care about concurrency, security, and
a lot of best practice that a Java or .Net developer must consider.****
** **
http://theremedyforit.com/2012/01/three-layers-programming-technique-for-bmc-remedy-ars/ ,
Remedy forces you to follow best practices for programming.****
** **
Have you tried to develop and application to be placed in a server farm
to provide service to hundreds of clients in Java? Even when using
corporate editions (like J2EE), it is a very confusing thing. concurrency,
transaction control, permissions, ... are a lot of things that the
programmer must consider when writing the code.****
** **
When you write a PUSH action Remedy does a lot of things, not only
accessing the table and writing the result. So it can't be translated to a
single line of code. Execution filter phases control for instance is
performed at every step.****
** **
As I stated before, if you change the remedy workflow model, then you
won't obtain Remedy, it will be another different thing.****
** **
But I think that there are some places where scripting language (in the
style of VBA) can be usefull and don't compromise the robustness of the
model. For instance create functions that can be used in SET actions. In
Spain we have a personal ID number that contains a control letter. There
are functions that can check if an ID number is correct or has some error,
using this control letter. Programming this function in Remedy is almost
impossible. Programming it in VBA or javascript is very easy (and you have
a lot of code available on Internet). ****
** **
This script for functions could simplify a lot of complex Remedy
workflows.****
** **
Regards,****
** **
Jose M. Huerta****
http://theremedyforit.com/ ****
****
** **
** **
wrote:****
LJ,
I agree that you can do this to an extent within Remedy (although I don't
agree with plugins for most things because it takes code outside of Remedy
just like using stored procedures.) When I was consulting, I remember one
application using some stored procedures within the database, some Perl on
the server called from filters, and I even had to build some VB 6 code in
DLLs called via OLE within the Windows User Tool. Supporting that system
would have required someone with decent SQL, Perl, VB 6, and AR System
development skills. Even then, it would have been difficult to
troubleshoot had something gone wrong.
Anyway I know you weren't arguing in favor of using plugins necessarily,
and I do agree with you about the benefits of being able to edit Remedy
objects via a text interface. I was just trying to point out that I think
SharePoint is closer to that model than anything else out there right now.
While there are downsides to SharePoint as Axton pointed out, I think it's
a step in the right direction from a development standpoint.
BMC seems to be going further away from AR System as a development
platform, so I don't see them really putting much more effort into
expanding AR System functionality except when forced to. I suspect that
the only reason for the Overlay functionality, for example, was because BMC
wanted to move more people to Remedy On Demand, and the Overlays meet the
requirement of 1) having standard OOtB applications that BMC controls and
upgrades all at once, at and 2) at the same time allowing the flexibility
to modify the applications to meet your business needs. I really don't
think that AR System as a development platform is their focus at all except
as a way to modify and extend the OOtB suite.****
Thanks,
Shawn Pierson
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2012 9:56 AM
Subject: Re: Script Generation
Remedy has this ability too....called plugins. You can build filter plugins
in Perl, Java, C....I'm sure a few others that I'm not familiar with.
With
the API model, you can build entirely custom clients that do wondrous
things. All if this is wonderful and great and all....but I think what John
was talking about was not the ability to extend Remedy...but the ability to
turn what is currently records in a DB into some form of industry recognized
script/code.
How many times have you had to answer the question of 'how many lines of
code would it take to implement this feature' with a 'it's not like that'
type of answer. I would love to be able to have the ability to create a
filter (just like I do today) and then be able to export that to
'code'....not a def, not an xml def...but actual code that could be read
somewhere.
Granted, that code wouldn't be able to be executed by anything other than
the Remedy server engine....but it would at least be code that could be read
by Remedy and generated by Remedy...but also coded OUTSIDE of Remedy if you
wanted to, but still read by Remedy.
-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2012 8:38 AM
Subject: Re: Script Generation
LJ,
Having worked some with SharePoint, I've seen how it could be advantageous
to build an ITSM suite completely on that platform rather than using AR
System. There are even tools that can be used within Visio to make
workflow. Granted, to do the really complex stuff you need to be a .NET
developer, but I've seen the direction Microsoft has been trying to push
into and it's what AR System used to be geared for -- letting
non-programmers quickly build enterprise applications. The only downside I
see is that if you give enough people permissions to build things, I.T. will
end up with the problem that Access caused where non-I.T. people made
unwieldy databases with impractical forms that they then tell us to support.
At least SharePoint has a permissions model. In any case, I think that it
does great by allowing the full gamut of allowing end users to create simple
forms and workflow, while highly skilled .NET developers can create highly
complex, feature rich applications.
Unfortunately, Sharepoint itself is not cross-platform so it wouldn't work
for BMC, but I'm really surprised that Microsoft hasn't released more
applications that sit on top of Sharepoint at this time. The only OOtB
Sharepoint based application I've used has been Project Web Access, but even
that requires you to build some of your own stuff and use Microsoft Project
in order to interact with the schedule. Still, I've seen some good third
party stuff, and I think Sharepoint is probably a great tool to learn as a
side project for anyone that prefers to focus on the development aspect of
Remedy rather than ITSM administration.
This may sound like I'm a big fan of Microsoft, which I'm not, but I am
impressed that they turned what started out as essentially web-based blog
software into a diverse platform for web sites and applications. I just
wish something similar that was cross platform and extremely popular
existed.
Thanks,
Shawn Pierson
-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2012 9:19 AM
Subject: Script Generation
John,
I'm changing the topic as to not hijack the original thread.
You bring up an interesting thought. I was involved with a discussion with
MicroFocus (parent company of Borland, maker of SilkTest) regarding their
test generation application...it's a simple point/click interface, but you
can, if you choose, export the test script to any number of 'known'
languages including .net and java. Once in the script form you can modify,
edit, do anything you really want...but when it comes back to executing the
script, you run it through their 'agent'. The SilkTest 'server' is really
just a license management process to ensure you are not using more licenses
than you have purchased....so...this takes us to the concept you just
discussed
The power of Remedy is it's point and click interface to do things...one of
the strongest up and downsides (at the same time) is the central development
environment. While this central dev environment (the remedy server) allows
for a lack of 'merge' problems....the fact that the code is stored only in
the DB, and isn't easily manipulated outside of the GUI makes it sometimes
hard to do things like merge....
So I agree....if BMC modified Remedy to function so that everything is still
point and click easy to create the code, but allowed the option of exporting
the code to a standardized format like Java, then allowed modification of
that code at that level....and of course would need to be imported back in
to validate the changes were good....
Yea...I could totally see using Remedy like that. :)
-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 4:02 PM
Subject: Overlay and Applications
Hello,
I do wonder when the time will come when base/overlay/etc are replaced
with the simple concept of a script.
Converting existing workflow to a script is easy and much of the work
has already been done, ie converting client side workflow to Javascript
already exists in the Mid Tier.
Writing a server side workflow (filters/escalations/etc) to Javascript
is entirely feasible.
Once we find ourselves using Javascript, everything will run (far) more
quickly, AR System (with ITSM) would not require 1Gb of memory and 30
minutes to start, and a simple source control system can be used to
merge the BMC base application with a client's changes.
I've not met an AR System admin who can't fiddle with some script, so
perhaps AR System 8 should be the day BMC bite the bullet, eject the
# Push value of field 456 on this form to another
push_fields(456, "Target form", 987)
set_fields(123, "X")
change_label(9000, 'New value of my label')
set_read_only(9000, True)
Alright, so I prefer Python to Javascript but I suspect most ARSlisters
can follow the above.
John
____________________________________________________________________________
___
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attend wwrug12 www.wwrug12.com ARSList: "Where the Answers Are"
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link, please e-mail sender.
____________________________________________________________________________
___
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_______________________________________________________________________________
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attend wwrug12 www.wwrug12.com ARSList: "Where the Answers Are"
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the link, please e-mail sender.
_______________________________________________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org
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** **
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Guillaume Rheault
2012-01-12 23:47:56 UTC
Permalink
Shawn ,

I need to chive in because I think everybody that has replied to the threads is missing the point, except you. You got it. When you state that BMC seems to be going away from AR System as a development platform, I think you are almost right: I do not think that BMC has ever really intended for AR System to be a development environment where third parties can build their applications on ARS and sell them.

Case in point: you may remember the deployable applications in version ARS 6.0 (if my memory serves me well) had the ability for a license key to be entered. Therefore, the application would run, but without the license key the end user (the customer) could not view or update the objects in the application with the admin tool. Well all that stuff was done away with and scrapped in ARS 7.0 (if my memory serves me right). That feature was marketed by then by BMC as a step in the direction for allowing third parties to build their applications, and possibly sell them in what was referred to as the BMC MarketPlace (if I remeber well). Well that whole thing fell apart. Since then, I have not heard anything to suggest that BMC is even considering that again.

Therefore all these wishes about better version control, scripting and such, are really not that important if BMC does not really make the ARS a development platform that would be used for applications other than ITSM, or for custom modules developed at customer sites that complement the ITSM suite. Sure it would make the life of the Remedy administrator/developer easier, and BMC is taking steps into that direction. But that is not enough. There is the issue of licensing.

If I was going to develop applications from scratch and sell them to the public, I would not consider doing that with AR System at all. 8 years ago when the license-able deployable application was conceived in ARS 6.0, I really considered that, but the issue then was always that customers need to still pay an ARS server license key and ARS user licenses, in addition to whatever they would pay for your app. So I was waiting for BMC to see what was the next step. And the next step was to kill that feature and the market place concept.

It seems to me ARS and ITSM/RKM/SRM/CMDB/ITBM need to be considered as a whole nowadays, because whatever new features need to be developed in those apps/suites, that will force new features to be developed in ARS. But I don't think new ARS features will be conceived for their own good/merit. You correctly point this out in your reply.

So that's why in my previous replies, I believe that it is not accurate anymore to compare ARS by itself, with other programming languages or development frameworks. I would say it is more accurate to compare the ARS ITSM suite (with all the modules SRM, RKM, SLM, etc) with the equivalent suites from the competition, mostly HP, CA, IBM and service-now.

-Guillaume

________________________________________
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) [***@ARSLIST.ORG] on behalf of Pierson, Shawn [***@SUG.COM]
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2012 1:49 PM
To: ***@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: Script Generation

LJ,

I agree that you can do this to an extent within Remedy (although I don't agree with plugins for most things because it takes code outside of Remedy just like using stored procedures.) When I was consulting, I remember one application using some stored procedures within the database, some Perl on the server called from filters, and I even had to build some VB 6 code in DLLs called via OLE within the Windows User Tool. Supporting that system would have required someone with decent SQL, Perl, VB 6, and AR System development skills. Even then, it would have been difficult to troubleshoot had something gone wrong.

Anyway I know you weren't arguing in favor of using plugins necessarily, and I do agree with you about the benefits of being able to edit Remedy objects via a text interface. I was just trying to point out that I think SharePoint is closer to that model than anything else out there right now. While there are downsides to SharePoint as Axton pointed out, I think it's a step in the right direction from a development standpoint.

BMC seems to be going further away from AR System as a development platform, so I don't see them really putting much more effort into expanding AR System functionality except when forced to. I suspect that the only reason for the Overlay functionality, for example, was because BMC wanted to move more people to Remedy On Demand, and the Overlays meet the requirement of 1) having standard OOtB applications that BMC controls and upgrades all at once, at and 2) at the same time allowing the flexibility to modify the applications to meet your business needs. I really don't think that AR System as a development platform is their focus at all except as a way to modify and extend the OOtB suite.

Thanks,

Shawn Pierson

-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) [mailto:***@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of LJ LongWing
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2012 9:56 AM
To: ***@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: Script Generation

Remedy has this ability too....called plugins. You can build filter plugins
in Perl, Java, C....I'm sure a few others that I'm not familiar with. With
the API model, you can build entirely custom clients that do wondrous
things. All if this is wonderful and great and all....but I think what John
was talking about was not the ability to extend Remedy...but the ability to
turn what is currently records in a DB into some form of industry recognized
script/code.

How many times have you had to answer the question of 'how many lines of
code would it take to implement this feature' with a 'it's not like that'
type of answer. I would love to be able to have the ability to create a
filter (just like I do today) and then be able to export that to
'code'....not a def, not an xml def...but actual code that could be read
somewhere.

Granted, that code wouldn't be able to be executed by anything other than
the Remedy server engine....but it would at least be code that could be read
by Remedy and generated by Remedy...but also coded OUTSIDE of Remedy if you
wanted to, but still read by Remedy.

-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:***@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Pierson, Shawn
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2012 8:38 AM
To: ***@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: Script Generation

LJ,

Having worked some with SharePoint, I've seen how it could be advantageous
to build an ITSM suite completely on that platform rather than using AR
System. There are even tools that can be used within Visio to make
workflow. Granted, to do the really complex stuff you need to be a .NET
developer, but I've seen the direction Microsoft has been trying to push
into and it's what AR System used to be geared for -- letting
non-programmers quickly build enterprise applications. The only downside I
see is that if you give enough people permissions to build things, I.T. will
end up with the problem that Access caused where non-I.T. people made
unwieldy databases with impractical forms that they then tell us to support.
At least SharePoint has a permissions model. In any case, I think that it
does great by allowing the full gamut of allowing end users to create simple
forms and workflow, while highly skilled .NET developers can create highly
complex, feature rich applications.

Unfortunately, Sharepoint itself is not cross-platform so it wouldn't work
for BMC, but I'm really surprised that Microsoft hasn't released more
applications that sit on top of Sharepoint at this time. The only OOtB
Sharepoint based application I've used has been Project Web Access, but even
that requires you to build some of your own stuff and use Microsoft Project
in order to interact with the schedule. Still, I've seen some good third
party stuff, and I think Sharepoint is probably a great tool to learn as a
side project for anyone that prefers to focus on the development aspect of
Remedy rather than ITSM administration.

This may sound like I'm a big fan of Microsoft, which I'm not, but I am
impressed that they turned what started out as essentially web-based blog
software into a diverse platform for web sites and applications. I just
wish something similar that was cross platform and extremely popular
existed.

Thanks,

Shawn Pierson

-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:***@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of LJ LongWing
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2012 9:19 AM
To: ***@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Script Generation

John,
I'm changing the topic as to not hijack the original thread.

You bring up an interesting thought. I was involved with a discussion with
MicroFocus (parent company of Borland, maker of SilkTest) regarding their
test generation application...it's a simple point/click interface, but you
can, if you choose, export the test script to any number of 'known'
languages including .net and java. Once in the script form you can modify,
edit, do anything you really want...but when it comes back to executing the
script, you run it through their 'agent'. The SilkTest 'server' is really
just a license management process to ensure you are not using more licenses
than you have purchased....so...this takes us to the concept you just
discussed

The power of Remedy is it's point and click interface to do things...one of
the strongest up and downsides (at the same time) is the central development
environment. While this central dev environment (the remedy server) allows
for a lack of 'merge' problems....the fact that the code is stored only in
the DB, and isn't easily manipulated outside of the GUI makes it sometimes
hard to do things like merge....

So I agree....if BMC modified Remedy to function so that everything is still
point and click easy to create the code, but allowed the option of exporting
the code to a standardized format like Java, then allowed modification of
that code at that level....and of course would need to be imported back in
to validate the changes were good....

Yea...I could totally see using Remedy like that. :)

-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:***@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of John Baker
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 4:02 PM
To: ***@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Overlay and Applications

Hello,

I do wonder when the time will come when base/overlay/etc are replaced
with the simple concept of a script.

Converting existing workflow to a script is easy and much of the work
has already been done, ie converting client side workflow to Javascript
already exists in the Mid Tier.

Writing a server side workflow (filters/escalations/etc) to Javascript
is entirely feasible.

Once we find ourselves using Javascript, everything will run (far) more
quickly, AR System (with ITSM) would not require 1Gb of memory and 30
minutes to start, and a simple source control system can be used to
merge the BMC base application with a client's changes.

I've not met an AR System admin who can't fiddle with some script, so
perhaps AR System 8 should be the day BMC bite the bullet, eject the
current model and move to simple text based scripts:

function my_active_link():
if field(123) = "abc":
# Push value of field 456 on this form to another
push_fields(456, "Target form", 987)
set_fields(123, "X")
else:
change_label(9000, 'New value of my label')
set_read_only(9000, True)

Alright, so I prefer Python to Javascript but I suspect most ARSlisters
can follow the above.


John

____________________________________________________________________________
___
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link, please e-mail sender.

____________________________________________________________________________
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_______________________________________________________________________________
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LJ LongWing
2012-01-13 15:33:40 UTC
Permalink
Guillaume,
I will agree that ever since 'Remedy' sold out the first time to make it
owned by someone else, the drive for 'Remedy as a platform' has diminished
if not entirely died. I have built my career around Remedy and don't want
to see the platform die as a platform...but that's truly not up to me.

-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:***@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Guillaume Rheault
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2012 4:48 PM
To: ***@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: Script Generation

Shawn ,

I need to chive in because I think everybody that has replied to the threads
is missing the point, except you. You got it. When you state that BMC seems
to be going away from AR System as a development platform, I think you are
almost right: I do not think that BMC has ever really intended for AR System
to be a development environment where third parties can build their
applications on ARS and sell them.

Case in point: you may remember the deployable applications in version ARS
6.0 (if my memory serves me well) had the ability for a license key to be
entered. Therefore, the application would run, but without the license key
the end user (the customer) could not view or update the objects in the
application with the admin tool. Well all that stuff was done away with and
scrapped in ARS 7.0 (if my memory serves me right). That feature was
marketed by then by BMC as a step in the direction for allowing third
parties to build their applications, and possibly sell them in what was
referred to as the BMC MarketPlace (if I remeber well). Well that whole
thing fell apart. Since then, I have not heard anything to suggest that BMC
is even considering that again.

Therefore all these wishes about better version control, scripting and such,
are really not that important if BMC does not really make the ARS a
development platform that would be used for applications other than ITSM, or
for custom modules developed at customer sites that complement the ITSM
suite. Sure it would make the life of the Remedy administrator/developer
easier, and BMC is taking steps into that direction. But that is not enough.
There is the issue of licensing.

If I was going to develop applications from scratch and sell them to the
public, I would not consider doing that with AR System at all. 8 years ago
when the license-able deployable application was conceived in ARS 6.0, I
really considered that, but the issue then was always that customers need to
still pay an ARS server license key and ARS user licenses, in addition to
whatever they would pay for your app. So I was waiting for BMC to see what
was the next step. And the next step was to kill that feature and the market
place concept.

It seems to me ARS and ITSM/RKM/SRM/CMDB/ITBM need to be considered as a
whole nowadays, because whatever new features need to be developed in those
apps/suites, that will force new features to be developed in ARS. But I
don't think new ARS features will be conceived for their own good/merit. You
correctly point this out in your reply.

So that's why in my previous replies, I believe that it is not accurate
anymore to compare ARS by itself, with other programming languages or
development frameworks. I would say it is more accurate to compare the ARS
ITSM suite (with all the modules SRM, RKM, SLM, etc) with the equivalent
suites from the competition, mostly HP, CA, IBM and service-now.

-Guillaume

________________________________________
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) [***@ARSLIST.ORG]
on behalf of Pierson, Shawn [***@SUG.COM]
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2012 1:49 PM
To: ***@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: Script Generation

LJ,

I agree that you can do this to an extent within Remedy (although I don't
agree with plugins for most things because it takes code outside of Remedy
just like using stored procedures.) When I was consulting, I remember one
application using some stored procedures within the database, some Perl on
the server called from filters, and I even had to build some VB 6 code in
DLLs called via OLE within the Windows User Tool. Supporting that system
would have required someone with decent SQL, Perl, VB 6, and AR System
development skills. Even then, it would have been difficult to troubleshoot
had something gone wrong.

Anyway I know you weren't arguing in favor of using plugins necessarily, and
I do agree with you about the benefits of being able to edit Remedy objects
via a text interface. I was just trying to point out that I think
SharePoint is closer to that model than anything else out there right now.
While there are downsides to SharePoint as Axton pointed out, I think it's a
step in the right direction from a development standpoint.

BMC seems to be going further away from AR System as a development platform,
so I don't see them really putting much more effort into expanding AR System
functionality except when forced to. I suspect that the only reason for the
Overlay functionality, for example, was because BMC wanted to move more
people to Remedy On Demand, and the Overlays meet the requirement of 1)
having standard OOtB applications that BMC controls and upgrades all at
once, at and 2) at the same time allowing the flexibility to modify the
applications to meet your business needs. I really don't think that AR
System as a development platform is their focus at all except as a way to
modify and extend the OOtB suite.

Thanks,

Shawn Pierson

-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:***@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of LJ LongWing
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2012 9:56 AM
To: ***@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: Script Generation

Remedy has this ability too....called plugins. You can build filter plugins
in Perl, Java, C....I'm sure a few others that I'm not familiar with. With
the API model, you can build entirely custom clients that do wondrous
things. All if this is wonderful and great and all....but I think what John
was talking about was not the ability to extend Remedy...but the ability to
turn what is currently records in a DB into some form of industry recognized
script/code.

How many times have you had to answer the question of 'how many lines of
code would it take to implement this feature' with a 'it's not like that'
type of answer. I would love to be able to have the ability to create a
filter (just like I do today) and then be able to export that to
'code'....not a def, not an xml def...but actual code that could be read
somewhere.

Granted, that code wouldn't be able to be executed by anything other than
the Remedy server engine....but it would at least be code that could be read
by Remedy and generated by Remedy...but also coded OUTSIDE of Remedy if you
wanted to, but still read by Remedy.

-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:***@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Pierson, Shawn
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2012 8:38 AM
To: ***@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: Script Generation

LJ,

Having worked some with SharePoint, I've seen how it could be advantageous
to build an ITSM suite completely on that platform rather than using AR
System. There are even tools that can be used within Visio to make
workflow. Granted, to do the really complex stuff you need to be a .NET
developer, but I've seen the direction Microsoft has been trying to push
into and it's what AR System used to be geared for -- letting
non-programmers quickly build enterprise applications. The only downside I
see is that if you give enough people permissions to build things, I.T. will
end up with the problem that Access caused where non-I.T. people made
unwieldy databases with impractical forms that they then tell us to support.
At least SharePoint has a permissions model. In any case, I think that it
does great by allowing the full gamut of allowing end users to create simple
forms and workflow, while highly skilled .NET developers can create highly
complex, feature rich applications.

Unfortunately, Sharepoint itself is not cross-platform so it wouldn't work
for BMC, but I'm really surprised that Microsoft hasn't released more
applications that sit on top of Sharepoint at this time. The only OOtB
Sharepoint based application I've used has been Project Web Access, but even
that requires you to build some of your own stuff and use Microsoft Project
in order to interact with the schedule. Still, I've seen some good third
party stuff, and I think Sharepoint is probably a great tool to learn as a
side project for anyone that prefers to focus on the development aspect of
Remedy rather than ITSM administration.

This may sound like I'm a big fan of Microsoft, which I'm not, but I am
impressed that they turned what started out as essentially web-based blog
software into a diverse platform for web sites and applications. I just
wish something similar that was cross platform and extremely popular
existed.

Thanks,

Shawn Pierson

-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:***@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of LJ LongWing
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2012 9:19 AM
To: ***@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Script Generation

John,
I'm changing the topic as to not hijack the original thread.

You bring up an interesting thought. I was involved with a discussion with
MicroFocus (parent company of Borland, maker of SilkTest) regarding their
test generation application...it's a simple point/click interface, but you
can, if you choose, export the test script to any number of 'known'
languages including .net and java. Once in the script form you can modify,
edit, do anything you really want...but when it comes back to executing the
script, you run it through their 'agent'. The SilkTest 'server' is really
just a license management process to ensure you are not using more licenses
than you have purchased....so...this takes us to the concept you just
discussed

The power of Remedy is it's point and click interface to do things...one of
the strongest up and downsides (at the same time) is the central development
environment. While this central dev environment (the remedy server) allows
for a lack of 'merge' problems....the fact that the code is stored only in
the DB, and isn't easily manipulated outside of the GUI makes it sometimes
hard to do things like merge....

So I agree....if BMC modified Remedy to function so that everything is still
point and click easy to create the code, but allowed the option of exporting
the code to a standardized format like Java, then allowed modification of
that code at that level....and of course would need to be imported back in
to validate the changes were good....

Yea...I could totally see using Remedy like that. :)

-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:***@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of John Baker
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 4:02 PM
To: ***@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Overlay and Applications

Hello,

I do wonder when the time will come when base/overlay/etc are replaced
with the simple concept of a script.

Converting existing workflow to a script is easy and much of the work
has already been done, ie converting client side workflow to Javascript
already exists in the Mid Tier.

Writing a server side workflow (filters/escalations/etc) to Javascript
is entirely feasible.

Once we find ourselves using Javascript, everything will run (far) more
quickly, AR System (with ITSM) would not require 1Gb of memory and 30
minutes to start, and a simple source control system can be used to
merge the BMC base application with a client's changes.

I've not met an AR System admin who can't fiddle with some script, so
perhaps AR System 8 should be the day BMC bite the bullet, eject the
current model and move to simple text based scripts:

function my_active_link():
if field(123) = "abc":
# Push value of field 456 on this form to another
push_fields(456, "Target form", 987)
set_fields(123, "X")
else:
change_label(9000, 'New value of my label')
set_read_only(9000, True)

Alright, so I prefer Python to Javascript but I suspect most ARSlisters
can follow the above.


John

____________________________________________________________________________
___
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attend wwrug12 www.wwrug12.com ARSList: "Where the Answers Are"

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link, please e-mail sender.

____________________________________________________________________________
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attend wwrug12 www.wwrug12.com ARSList: "Where the Answers Are"

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link, please e-mail sender.

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Guillaume Rheault
2012-01-16 19:16:21 UTC
Permalink
hi LJ,

I don't think the ARS platform will die or diminish any time soon.... BMC keeps investing in it a whole lot.
If ARS dies, BMC might die with it, or at least it would be seriously handicapped. That's just my opinion.

The point that I am trying to make is this, and I will try to explain in simple terms:

There are two types of application development environments:

1. A development environment where the programmer/developer can create an application and sell it to the public, without licensing limitations or hindrances and without having to pay somebody for the platform license. This is the case I believe with java, .net, PHP, etc. AR System does not fall in this category, because the customer still needs to pay BMC for the AR Server license and the ARS user licenses for any custom application, in addition to support fees.

2. A development environment where the programmer/developer extends and customizes a vendor application, and creates new modules that will serve exclusively his organization needs/requirements. This is the category where AR System is, and maybe Sharepoint, although I do now know the licensing restrictions with Microsoft (and I don't care).

Two very different scenarios and really two different worlds.

I personally think BMC has done a tremendous job with the AR System, and I trust they will keep up the good work there. The evidence is promising; overlays, better mid-tier architecture, better performance and manageability, new UI features, etc etc. A++++++ for Doug, David Easter and all the programmers at BMC. Let's squash CA, HP and service-now.

However, this does not mean that I would develop an application from scratch in AR System and try to sell it to the public: that's a non-starter under the present circumstances, specially the licensing.

I hope I was able to clarify my point of view

Guillaume

________________________________________
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) [***@ARSLIST.ORG] on behalf of LJ LongWing [***@GMAIL.COM]
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2012 10:33 AM
To: ***@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: Script Generation

Guillaume,
I will agree that ever since 'Remedy' sold out the first time to make it
owned by someone else, the drive for 'Remedy as a platform' has diminished
if not entirely died. I have built my career around Remedy and don't want
to see the platform die as a platform...but that's truly not up to me.

-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:***@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Guillaume Rheault
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2012 4:48 PM
To: ***@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: Script Generation

Shawn ,

I need to chive in because I think everybody that has replied to the threads
is missing the point, except you. You got it. When you state that BMC seems
to be going away from AR System as a development platform, I think you are
almost right: I do not think that BMC has ever really intended for AR System
to be a development environment where third parties can build their
applications on ARS and sell them.

Case in point: you may remember the deployable applications in version ARS
6.0 (if my memory serves me well) had the ability for a license key to be
entered. Therefore, the application would run, but without the license key
the end user (the customer) could not view or update the objects in the
application with the admin tool. Well all that stuff was done away with and
scrapped in ARS 7.0 (if my memory serves me right). That feature was
marketed by then by BMC as a step in the direction for allowing third
parties to build their applications, and possibly sell them in what was
referred to as the BMC MarketPlace (if I remeber well). Well that whole
thing fell apart. Since then, I have not heard anything to suggest that BMC
is even considering that again.

Therefore all these wishes about better version control, scripting and such,
are really not that important if BMC does not really make the ARS a
development platform that would be used for applications other than ITSM, or
for custom modules developed at customer sites that complement the ITSM
suite. Sure it would make the life of the Remedy administrator/developer
easier, and BMC is taking steps into that direction. But that is not enough.
There is the issue of licensing.

If I was going to develop applications from scratch and sell them to the
public, I would not consider doing that with AR System at all. 8 years ago
when the license-able deployable application was conceived in ARS 6.0, I
really considered that, but the issue then was always that customers need to
still pay an ARS server license key and ARS user licenses, in addition to
whatever they would pay for your app. So I was waiting for BMC to see what
was the next step. And the next step was to kill that feature and the market
place concept.

It seems to me ARS and ITSM/RKM/SRM/CMDB/ITBM need to be considered as a
whole nowadays, because whatever new features need to be developed in those
apps/suites, that will force new features to be developed in ARS. But I
don't think new ARS features will be conceived for their own good/merit. You
correctly point this out in your reply.

So that's why in my previous replies, I believe that it is not accurate
anymore to compare ARS by itself, with other programming languages or
development frameworks. I would say it is more accurate to compare the ARS
ITSM suite (with all the modules SRM, RKM, SLM, etc) with the equivalent
suites from the competition, mostly HP, CA, IBM and service-now.

-Guillaume

Axton
2012-01-12 16:17:02 UTC
Permalink
Try upgrading a SharePoint site that is multi-TB in size with
thousands of user generated applications with all that custom
content/coding... It's a huge effort. Sadly, the backwards
compatibility of those custom coded components is not always so
straight forward.

The merits of what John proposes is better manageability of the code
using a tried and true model for managing and working with code. The
difficulties with Remedy arise when one needs to merge code, someone
needs to do development independent of the main code line (potentially
detrimental), etc.

To the folks that like the current object based UI development model:
just because it is code does not mean that it couldn't be presented a
fashion similar to what we have today, with the object list, actions,
etc.

Imagine being able to:
- Pull a workflow difference report for any two points in time since
the beginning of time for a specific object
- Pull a workflow difference report for any two points in time since
the beginning of time for all objects modified in that time frame
- Allow multiple developers to work in seperate code lines without
impacting one another
- Allow developers to merge their code line with the main code line
- Run a difference report after and upgrade or patch and see exactly
what changed
- Cross-reference your upgrade difference report with past internal
object modifications to get a report of objects updated by the upgrade
that were previously updated by you
- Being able to view past versions of an object from the context of
the object (i.e., when viewing an active link, you can click to view
past version of the object, and when selecting the past version to
view; when selecting the object to compare against, you see who
changed it, when they changed it, and comments that accompany the
change)

Axton Grams
LJ,
Having worked some with SharePoint, I've seen how it could be advantageous to build an ITSM suite completely on that platform rather than using AR System.  There are even tools that can be used within Visio to make workflow.  Granted, to do the really complex stuff you need to be a .NET developer, but I've seen the direction Microsoft has been trying to push into and it's what AR System used to be geared for -- letting non-programmers quickly build enterprise applications.  The only downside I see is that if you give enough people permissions to build things, I.T. will end up with the problem that Access caused where non-I.T. people made unwieldy databases with impractical forms that they then tell us to support.  At least SharePoint has a permissions model.  In any case, I think that it does great by allowing the full gamut of allowing end users to create simple forms and workflow, while highly skilled .NET developers can create highly complex, feature rich applications.
Unfortunately, Sharepoint itself is not cross-platform so it wouldn't work for BMC, but I'm really surprised that Microsoft hasn't released more applications that sit on top of Sharepoint at this time.  The only OOtB Sharepoint based application I've used has been Project Web Access, but even that requires you to build some of your own stuff and use Microsoft Project in order to interact with the schedule.  Still, I've seen some good third party stuff, and I think Sharepoint is probably a great tool to learn as a side project for anyone that prefers to focus on the development aspect of Remedy rather than ITSM administration.
This may sound like I'm a big fan of Microsoft, which I'm not, but I am impressed that they turned what started out as essentially web-based blog software into a diverse platform for web sites and applications.  I just wish something similar that was cross platform and extremely popular existed.
Thanks,
Shawn Pierson
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2012 9:19 AM
Subject: Script Generation
John,
I'm changing the topic as to not hijack the original thread.
You bring up an interesting thought.  I was involved with a discussion with
MicroFocus (parent company of Borland, maker of SilkTest) regarding their
test generation application...it's a simple point/click interface, but you
can, if you choose, export the test script to any number of 'known'
languages including .net and java.  Once in the script form you can modify,
edit, do anything you really want...but when it comes back to executing the
script, you run it through their 'agent'.  The SilkTest 'server' is really
just a license management process to ensure you are not using more licenses
than you have purchased....so...this takes us to the concept you just
discussed
The power of Remedy is it's point and click interface to do things...one of
the strongest up and downsides (at the same time) is the central development
environment.  While this central dev environment (the remedy server) allows
for a lack of 'merge' problems....the fact that the code is stored only in
the DB, and isn't easily manipulated outside of the GUI makes it sometimes
hard to do things like merge....
So I agree....if BMC modified Remedy to function so that everything is still
point and click easy to create the code, but allowed the option of exporting
the code to a standardized format like Java, then allowed modification of
that code at that level....and of course would need to be imported back in
to validate the changes were good....
Yea...I could totally see using Remedy like that. :)
-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 4:02 PM
Subject: Overlay and Applications
Hello,
I do wonder when the time will come when base/overlay/etc are replaced
with the simple concept of a script.
Converting existing workflow to a script is easy and much of the work
has already been done, ie converting client side workflow to Javascript
already exists in the Mid Tier.
Writing a server side workflow (filters/escalations/etc) to Javascript
is entirely feasible.
Once we find ourselves using Javascript, everything will run (far) more
quickly, AR System (with ITSM) would not require 1Gb of memory and 30
minutes to start, and a simple source control system can be used to
merge the BMC base application with a client's changes.
I've not met an AR System admin who can't fiddle with some script, so
perhaps AR System 8 should be the day BMC bite the bullet, eject the
   # Push value of field 456 on this form to another
   push_fields(456, "Target form", 987)
   set_fields(123, "X")
   change_label(9000, 'New value of my label')
   set_read_only(9000, True)
Alright, so I prefer Python to Javascript but I suspect most ARSlisters
can follow the above.
John
____________________________________________________________________________
___
UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org
attend wwrug12 www.wwrug12.com ARSList: "Where the Answers Are"
_______________________________________________________________________________
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attend wwrug12 www.wwrug12.com ARSList: "Where the Answers Are"
Private and confidential as detailed here: http://www.sug.com/disclaimers/default.htm#Mail . If you cannot access the link, please e-mail sender.
_______________________________________________________________________________
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Coleman, Gavin
2012-01-12 16:41:16 UTC
Permalink
Ah. That makes a bit more sense now! I didn't understand what the point of the script was. Now I know that it's simply the way that Remedy would store the workflow defined by the user in Developer Studio I can totally see the benefits of it. As long as we kept the ease of use of Remedy and the development environment then I'd be happy however the workflow was stored.

BTW - my co-workers are completely taking the mickey out of me now. I have a CV, tombstone and company appreciation certificate with quotes from my previous email "Damn Good Remedy Developer", "..very little formal training..."!

Thanks,

Gavin Coleman
Senior Analyst/Programmer
Computacenter (UK) Ltd
Services & Solutions
Hatfield Avenue
Hatfield, Hertfordshire, AL10 9TW, United Kingdom
T: +44 (0) 1707 631662
E: ***@computacenter.com
W: www.computacenter.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) [mailto:***@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Axton
Sent: 12 January 2012 16:17
To: ***@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: Script Generation

Try upgrading a SharePoint site that is multi-TB in size with
thousands of user generated applications with all that custom
content/coding... It's a huge effort. Sadly, the backwards
compatibility of those custom coded components is not always so
straight forward.

The merits of what John proposes is better manageability of the code
using a tried and true model for managing and working with code. The
difficulties with Remedy arise when one needs to merge code, someone
needs to do development independent of the main code line (potentially
detrimental), etc.

To the folks that like the current object based UI development model:
just because it is code does not mean that it couldn't be presented a
fashion similar to what we have today, with the object list, actions,
etc.

Imagine being able to:
- Pull a workflow difference report for any two points in time since
the beginning of time for a specific object
- Pull a workflow difference report for any two points in time since
the beginning of time for all objects modified in that time frame
- Allow multiple developers to work in seperate code lines without
impacting one another
- Allow developers to merge their code line with the main code line
- Run a difference report after and upgrade or patch and see exactly
what changed
- Cross-reference your upgrade difference report with past internal
object modifications to get a report of objects updated by the upgrade
that were previously updated by you
- Being able to view past versions of an object from the context of
the object (i.e., when viewing an active link, you can click to view
past version of the object, and when selecting the past version to
view; when selecting the object to compare against, you see who
changed it, when they changed it, and comments that accompany the
change)

Axton Grams
LJ,
Having worked some with SharePoint, I've seen how it could be advantageous to build an ITSM suite completely on that platform rather than using AR System.  There are even tools that can be used within Visio to make workflow.  Granted, to do the really complex stuff you need to be a .NET developer, but I've seen the direction Microsoft has been trying to push into and it's what AR System used to be geared for -- letting non-programmers quickly build enterprise applications.  The only downside I see is that if you give enough people permissions to build things, I.T. will end up with the problem that Access caused where non-I.T. people made unwieldy databases with impractical forms that they then tell us to support.  At least SharePoint has a permissions model.  In any case, I think that it does great by allowing the full gamut of allowing end users to create simple forms and workflow, while highly skilled .NET developers can create highly complex, feature rich applications.
Unfortunately, Sharepoint itself is not cross-platform so it wouldn't work for BMC, but I'm really surprised that Microsoft hasn't released more applications that sit on top of Sharepoint at this time.  The only OOtB Sharepoint based application I've used has been Project Web Access, but even that requires you to build some of your own stuff and use Microsoft Project in order to interact with the schedule.  Still, I've seen some good third party stuff, and I think Sharepoint is probably a great tool to learn as a side project for anyone that prefers to focus on the development aspect of Remedy rather than ITSM administration.
This may sound like I'm a big fan of Microsoft, which I'm not, but I am impressed that they turned what started out as essentially web-based blog software into a diverse platform for web sites and applications.  I just wish something similar that was cross platform and extremely popular existed.
Thanks,
Shawn Pierson
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2012 9:19 AM
Subject: Script Generation
John,
I'm changing the topic as to not hijack the original thread.
You bring up an interesting thought.  I was involved with a discussion with
MicroFocus (parent company of Borland, maker of SilkTest) regarding their
test generation application...it's a simple point/click interface, but you
can, if you choose, export the test script to any number of 'known'
languages including .net and java.  Once in the script form you can modify,
edit, do anything you really want...but when it comes back to executing the
script, you run it through their 'agent'.  The SilkTest 'server' is really
just a license management process to ensure you are not using more licenses
than you have purchased....so...this takes us to the concept you just
discussed
The power of Remedy is it's point and click interface to do things...one of
the strongest up and downsides (at the same time) is the central development
environment.  While this central dev environment (the remedy server) allows
for a lack of 'merge' problems....the fact that the code is stored only in
the DB, and isn't easily manipulated outside of the GUI makes it sometimes
hard to do things like merge....
So I agree....if BMC modified Remedy to function so that everything is still
point and click easy to create the code, but allowed the option of exporting
the code to a standardized format like Java, then allowed modification of
that code at that level....and of course would need to be imported back in
to validate the changes were good....
Yea...I could totally see using Remedy like that. :)
-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 4:02 PM
Subject: Overlay and Applications
Hello,
I do wonder when the time will come when base/overlay/etc are replaced
with the simple concept of a script.
Converting existing workflow to a script is easy and much of the work
has already been done, ie converting client side workflow to Javascript
already exists in the Mid Tier.
Writing a server side workflow (filters/escalations/etc) to Javascript
is entirely feasible.
Once we find ourselves using Javascript, everything will run (far) more
quickly, AR System (with ITSM) would not require 1Gb of memory and 30
minutes to start, and a simple source control system can be used to
merge the BMC base application with a client's changes.
I've not met an AR System admin who can't fiddle with some script, so
perhaps AR System 8 should be the day BMC bite the bullet, eject the
   # Push value of field 456 on this form to another
   push_fields(456, "Target form", 987)
   set_fields(123, "X")
   change_label(9000, 'New value of my label')
   set_read_only(9000, True)
Alright, so I prefer Python to Javascript but I suspect most ARSlisters
can follow the above.
John
____________________________________________________________________________
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John Baker
2012-01-12 08:55:26 UTC
Permalink
Jose,

I'm pleased you agree and don't.

Let me tackle the don't: I'm not suggesting there shouldn't be a user interface/admin tool, and there is no reason why that can't remain. However, the current approach of trying to put workflow into a database isn't working because functionality that was available in the 1970s (according to the Wiki page, but 1990 is a more reasonble guess) proves difficult/impossible to implement in AR System.

Storing as a script will allow merges in seconds, side by side easy to read diff between two sets of workflow, multiple branches and branches on branches, access over ssh, a pretty web interface and integration to bug tracking systems (JIRA), test driven development - the list goes on. All of which is available for free or with little effort if workflow is stored as scripts, not stored into a database table.

The problem with the current model touches so many areas of AR System: When Mid Tier isn't required to store workflow in a memory cache and can simply point the browser at scripts, the "pre-cache" functionality will largely disappear and the product will become vastly less memory hungry and much quicker.

Perhaps I should ask, can anyone think of a disadvantage with taking workflow from the schema and into scripts?


John
John Sundberg
2012-01-12 15:07:25 UTC
Permalink
Disadvantage:

Less ability to complain about ARS - which is sometimes fun.

Other than that - I am stumped for a reason.

(I would list the positives - but I have created large emails before on
ARSList - and I run into the max email length problem -- I predict I would
run into that again)



-John



On Thu, Jan 12, 2012 at 2:55 AM, John Baker
Post by John Baker
Jose,
I'm pleased you agree and don't.
Let me tackle the don't: I'm not suggesting there shouldn't be a user
interface/admin tool, and there is no reason why that can't remain.
However, the current approach of trying to put workflow into a database
isn't working because functionality that was available in the 1970s
(according to the Wiki page, but 1990 is a more reasonble guess) proves
difficult/impossible to implement in AR System.
Storing as a script will allow merges in seconds, side by side easy to
read diff between two sets of workflow, multiple branches and branches on
branches, access over ssh, a pretty web interface and integration to bug
tracking systems (JIRA), test driven development - the list goes on. All of
which is available for free or with little effort if workflow is stored as
scripts, not stored into a database table.
When Mid Tier isn't required to store workflow in a memory cache and can
simply point the browser at scripts, the "pre-cache" functionality will
largely disappear and the product will become vastly less memory hungry and
much quicker.
Perhaps I should ask, can anyone think of a disadvantage with taking
workflow from the schema and into scripts?
John
_______________________________________________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org
attend wwrug12 www.wwrug12.com ARSList: "Where the Answers Are"
--
John David Sundberg
235 East 6th Street, Suite 400B
St. Paul, MN 55101
(651) 556-0930-work
(651) 247-6766-cell
(651) 695-8577-fax
***@kineticdata.com

_______________________________________________________________________________
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Grooms, Frederick W
2012-01-12 16:28:20 UTC
Permalink
I have to disagree... The fact that everything is stored in the database is one of the biggest advantages to the Action Request System. I don't know why I would want to go from my 4GL system back to 3GL scripting. I have yet to find anything worthwhile that is impossible to implement in AR System. I can create specialized tracking systems for my company in less time and with less problems than someone in a 3GL setup.

Fred

-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) [mailto:***@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of John Baker
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2012 2:55 AM
To: ***@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Overlay and Applications

Jose,

I'm pleased you agree and don't.

Let me tackle the don't: I'm not suggesting there shouldn't be a user interface/admin tool, and there is no reason why that can't remain. However, the current approach of trying to put workflow into a database isn't working because functionality that was available in the 1970s (according to the Wiki page, but 1990 is a more reasonble guess) proves difficult/impossible to implement in AR System.

Storing as a script will allow merges in seconds, side by side easy to read diff between two sets of workflow, multiple branches and branches on branches, access over ssh, a pretty web interface and integration to bug tracking systems (JIRA), test driven development - the list goes on. All of which is available for free or with little effort if workflow is stored as scripts, not stored into a database table.

The problem with the current model touches so many areas of AR System: When Mid Tier isn't required to store workflow in a memory cache and can simply point the browser at scripts, the "pre-cache" functionality will largely disappear and the product will become vastly less memory hungry and much quicker.

Perhaps I should ask, can anyone think of a disadvantage with taking workflow from the schema and into scripts?


John
LJ LongWing
2012-01-12 16:53:18 UTC
Permalink
Fred,
How would you like to still create your app in exactly the same way you can
today, but also be able to do all of the versioning and merging stuff that
Axton just posted about?

-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:***@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Grooms, Frederick W
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2012 9:28 AM
To: ***@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: Overlay and Applications

I have to disagree... The fact that everything is stored in the database is
one of the biggest advantages to the Action Request System. I don't know
why I would want to go from my 4GL system back to 3GL scripting. I have yet
to find anything worthwhile that is impossible to implement in AR System. I
can create specialized tracking systems for my company in less time and with
less problems than someone in a 3GL setup.

Fred

-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:***@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of John Baker
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2012 2:55 AM
To: ***@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Overlay and Applications

Jose,

I'm pleased you agree and don't.

Let me tackle the don't: I'm not suggesting there shouldn't be a user
interface/admin tool, and there is no reason why that can't remain. However,
the current approach of trying to put workflow into a database isn't working
because functionality that was available in the 1970s (according to the Wiki
page, but 1990 is a more reasonble guess) proves difficult/impossible to
implement in AR System.

Storing as a script will allow merges in seconds, side by side easy to read
diff between two sets of workflow, multiple branches and branches on
branches, access over ssh, a pretty web interface and integration to bug
tracking systems (JIRA), test driven development - the list goes on. All of
which is available for free or with little effort if workflow is stored as
scripts, not stored into a database table.

The problem with the current model touches so many areas of AR System: When
Mid Tier isn't required to store workflow in a memory cache and can simply
point the browser at scripts, the "pre-cache" functionality will largely
disappear and the product will become vastly less memory hungry and much
quicker.

Perhaps I should ask, can anyone think of a disadvantage with taking
workflow from the schema and into scripts?


John

____________________________________________________________________________
___
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Guillaume Rheault
2012-01-12 19:12:16 UTC
Permalink
John,

I don't agree in regressing the ARS platform into a 3 GL or 3.5 GL. Posts have been submitted in the past where the consensus is that ARS is at least 4 GL, bordering on 5 GL.
The freedom is there for programmers to create applications in any language they like: Python, Java, .net, etc. Developers that want to program in 3 GL, go and do that in whatever you like, but don't try to square the Remedy ARS cercle. Whether your company approves or not applications developed in whatever language or platform is another problem. But for those that don't like ARS development: comrades, get out of it and choose something that fulfills and enriches you, or that at least that you will find interesting or gratifying to do for 8 hours per day.

ARS is rapid development, it has it advantages and limitations: that is the nature of it. You either like it and accept and live with it, or you don't and choose something else.

About what the Remedy code/definitions is stored in the database vs. files, I guess there is only a handful of people in the whole world that can answer that question. The design decisions taken more than 20 years ago may not apply nowadays, or apply less. The question is what is the problem to solve. Is the problem to solve faster start-up times, then the pre-load segments come in handy. Is the problem the mid-tier cache, the 764 versions has the sync cache feature and other features that alleviate that, not entirely but alleviate that.

On the other hand, putting the code in the database allows for queries to be done against the code, transactional integrity, backups, etc. So the question is what is the problem to be solved nowadays. if it is version control, BMC is incorporating version control capabilities in ARS.

What I think you are advocating is that ARS becomes like service-now, and that is not going to happen. Customers are realizing that service-now is NOT the silver bullet they were promised, and some of the service-now customers are going back to BMC Remedy. I recommend you get familiar with service-now to see all the shortcomings they have, and how they compare with ARS (latest versions of both products of course)

Guillaume


________________________________________
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) [***@ARSLIST.ORG] on behalf of John Baker [***@JAVASYSTEMSOLUTIONS.COM]
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2012 3:55 AM
To: ***@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Overlay and Applications

Jose,

I'm pleased you agree and don't.

Let me tackle the don't: I'm not suggesting there shouldn't be a user interface/admin tool, and there is no reason why that can't remain. However, the current approach of trying to put workflow into a database isn't working because functionality that was available in the 1970s (according to the Wiki page, but 1990 is a more reasonble guess) proves difficult/impossible to implement in AR System.

Storing as a script will allow merges in seconds, side by side easy to read diff between two sets of workflow, multiple branches and branches on branches, access over ssh, a pretty web interface and integration to bug tracking systems (JIRA), test driven development - the list goes on. All of which is available for free or with little effort if workflow is stored as scripts, not stored into a database table.

The problem with the current model touches so many areas of AR System: When Mid Tier isn't required to store workflow in a memory cache and can simply point the browser at scripts, the "pre-cache" functionality will largely disappear and the product will become vastly less memory hungry and much quicker.

Perhaps I should ask, can anyone think of a disadvantage with taking workflow from the schema and into scripts?


John

_______________________________________________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org
attend wwrug12 www.wwrug12.com ARSList: "Where the Answers Are"
John Baker
2012-01-12 17:00:14 UTC
Permalink
Gavin: I was surprised you admitted to not being a very good developer given your experience with XPath, which I would argue isn't on page 1, 2, 3 or 4 of the "How to script" guide.

I return to my original argument: I don't think it's beyond the wit of the majority of people to fiddle with script, and if Developer Studio stored workflow in a file (per form), then it would take AR System to a new level. One can still point and click, but they could start to do far more interesting stuff too.

Everything's a Java plugin these days, and invoking Java plugins for simple tasks results in a slower AR System. And let's not forget the "Run process" functionality, which has acted like a pseudo scripting input for as long as I can remember, ie if there's no workflow for it, we'll use a run process event. How long is the list of run process events these days?

With the point and click interface being slowly overtaken by Java plugins, random run process events, C (eugh) plugins, etc., isn't it time everything was cleaned up in favour of a modern, standard, widely used scripting language to represent workflow? And I state very clearly, the point and click interface would be used to drive this workflow, removing no existing functionality.

For those who fancy a trip back in time, I recall Mid Tier 5 and 6.0 had a workflow engine built into it. The workflow was sent to the browser in structures, and a Javascript workflow engine "ran" it. This was very, very slow. So in 6.3, a bright spark decided to replace it with the simple principal of writing out workflow as Javascript, and it got a lot faster. At that point, the schema tables could have begun retirement.

I wonder how much money BMC has spent trying to re-invent the wheel with overlays, when a scripted solution would have been cheaper and brought many benefits - not least an end to the 30 minute start up times for ITSM 7.6.04.

If BMC want to give JSS a pile of money, we'd be happy to write it for them :-)
patrick zandi
2012-01-12 17:05:35 UTC
Permalink
30 min startup times? huh?
mine takes 5 or less..
on Solaris:
Im installing on VM / oracle 11R2 Linux 64bit now.(will know about that one
soon)
Onbenefits - not least an end to the 30 minute start up times for ITSM
7.6.04.
--
patrick zandi
2012-01-12 17:11:21 UTC
Permalink
not to hi-jack... the only issue I have found with start/shutdown is
shutdown..
They installed the collector / slm side into apache, with no application
interface to shut it down..
For Example: ./shutdown.sh in apache -- does not shut the apache collector
off: it is still running... and hangs
if you ./startup.sh it will not run, cause it is already running:: that
part needs a better cleaner setup...
but that is it..
I have to kill -9 all the processes:: cause the .sh in slm does not do
anything.. so another issue..
Post by patrick zandi
30 min startup times? huh?
mine takes 5 or less..
Im installing on VM / oracle 11R2 Linux 64bit now.(will know about that
one soon)
Onbenefits - not least an end to the 30 minute start up times for ITSM
7.6.04.
--
Patrick Zandi
--
Patrick Zandi

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John Sundberg
2012-01-12 18:43:23 UTC
Permalink
John,

It would not take that much effort (to make a converter). In fact -- I have
already written much of it (3 years ago during a summer vacation in
Connecticut).
(OK -- I looked at the code -- *** it is over 4 years ago)

I called my system (Rubedy) -- as I was taking arxml files and generating
Ruby On Rails code.

I created:
Migrations (table definitions)
Controllers (filters)

I ignored the UI side (including active links) -- as to me the whole thing
was about learning Ruby/Rails…


So - I could take any arxml file and re-generate the system in Ruby On
Rails -- it was a fun project.


johnsmac:Main jdsundberg$ ls -al
total 88
drwxr-xr-x 14 jdsundberg jdsundberg 476 Jan 12 12:32 .
drwxr-xr-x 18 jdsundberg jdsundberg 612 Jan 3 2011 ..
-rwxr--r--@ 1 jdsundberg jdsundberg 440 Jul 20 2007 HISTORY
-rw-r--r--@ 1 jdsundberg jdsundberg 1994 Jul 10 2007 README
-rw-r--r--@ 1 jdsundberg jdsundberg 4221 May 10 2008 TODO
-rwx------@ 1 jdsundberg jdsundberg 1296 Feb 27 2009 breakUpXML.rb
-rwx------@ 1 jdsundberg jdsundberg 1067 Jun 24 2007 buildFieldList.rb
-rwx------@ 1 jdsundberg jdsundberg 947 Jun 25 2007 getAllFieldNames.rb
drwxr-xr-x 19 jdsundberg jdsundberg 646 Sep 25 2007 lib
-rwx------@ 1 jdsundberg jdsundberg 5284 Feb 16 2009 parseXML.rb
-rw-r--r--@ 1 jdsundberg jdsundberg 192 Jun 3 2007 rakefile.rb
-rw-r--r-- 1 jdsundberg jdsundberg 2130 Jan 12 12:32 rubedy_listing
drwxr-xr-x 3 jdsundberg jdsundberg 102 Jul 17 2007 skel
drwxr-xr-x 12 jdsundberg jdsundberg 408 Aug 2 2007 test



Here is the contents of the filter qualification code:
$:.unshift(File.dirname(__FILE__) + "/../")

require 'rexml/document'
require 'value_type'

module Remedy
module Filters
class QualificationTree
# a QualificationTree - will either have a value/valueType
# or an operation with a left operand an a right operand

attr_reader :valueType, :value, :operation, :left, :right

def initialize(qual)

if (qual.nil?) then
# FIXME -- I think this can be deleted
# This appears to exist only when noQualification exists for a
filter
# I try to init a qualificationTree from Filter when writing
out the
# if statement of the filter
return ""
end

if qual.elements[1].name == "and" then
@operation = "and"
@left = QualificationTree.new(qual.elements[1].elements[1])
@right = QualificationTree.new(qual.elements[1].elements[2])
return
end

if qual.elements[1].name == "or" then
@operation = "or"
@left = QualificationTree.new(qual.elements[1].elements[1])
@right = QualificationTree.new(qual.elements[1].elements[2])
return
end

if qual.elements[1].name == "relationalOperation" then
@operation = qual.elements[1].elements[1].text
@left = QualificationTree.new(qual.elements[1].elements[2])
@right = QualificationTree.new(qual.elements[1].elements[3])
return
end

if qual.elements[1].name == "arithmeticOperation" then
@operation = qual.elements[1].elements[1].text
@left = QualificationTree.new(qual.elements[1].elements[2])
@right = QualificationTree.new(qual.elements[1].elements[3])
return
end

if qual.elements[1].name == "transactionValueFieldID" then
@valueType = "transactionValueFieldID"
@value = qual.elements[1].text
return
end

if qual.elements[1].name == "currentValueFieldID" then
@valueType = "currentValueFieldID"
@value = qual.elements[1].text
return
end

if qual.elements[1].name == "databaseValueFieldID" then
@valueType = "databaseValueFieldID"
@value = qual.elements[1].text
return
end


if qual.elements[1].name == "value" then
@valueType = qual.elements[1].elements[1].name
@value = qual.elements[1].elements[1].text
return
end


puts "ERROR: QualificationTree#initialize not prepared to handle
'#{qual.elements[1].name}'"

end

# include the formname so we can translate the qualification to be
# usable names vs numbers
def to_model(formname)

if (@valueType.nil? && @operation.nil?) then
return "true"
end

# Handle the valueTypes
if (!@valueType.nil?) then
return Remedy::ValueType.to_ruby(@valueType, @value, formname)
end

# Handle the operations
if (@operation == "and") then
return ("(#{@left.to_model(formname)} &&
#{@right.to_model(formname)})")
end

if (@operation == "or") then
return ("(#{@left.to_model(formname)} or
#{@right.to_model(formname)})")
end

if (@operation == "equal") then
return ("(#{@left.to_model(formname)} ==
#{@right.to_model(formname)})")
end

if (@operation == "less") then
return ("(#{@left.to_model(formname)} !=
#{@right.to_model(formname)})")
end

if (@operation == "like") then
return ("(#{@left.to_model(formname)} like
#{@right.to_model(formname)})") # FIXME -- this is not legal ruby
end

if (@operation == "greater") then
return ("(#{@left.to_model(formname)} >
#{@right.to_model(formname)})")
end

if (@operation == "notEqual") then
return ("(#{@left.to_model(formname)} !=
#{@right.to_model(formname)})")
end

if (@operation == "greaterEqual") then
return ("(#{@left.to_model(formname)} >=
#{@right.to_model(formname)})")
end

if (@operation == "add") then
return ("(#{@left.to_model(formname)} +
#{@right.to_model(formname)})")
end

if (@operation == "multiply") then
return ("(#{@left.to_model(formname)} *
#{@right.to_model(formname)})")
end

# we should never get here - unless new valueTypes have been
discovered
puts "ERROR: QualificationTree#to_model not prepared to handle
'#{@operation}'"

end

end

end # Filters
end # Remedy



-John
Post by John Baker
Gavin: I was surprised you admitted to not being a very good developer
given your experience with XPath, which I would argue isn't on page 1, 2, 3
or 4 of the "How to script" guide.
I return to my original argument: I don't think it's beyond the wit of the
majority of people to fiddle with script, and if Developer Studio stored
workflow in a file (per form), then it would take AR System to a new level.
One can still point and click, but they could start to do far more
interesting stuff too.
Everything's a Java plugin these days, and invoking Java plugins for
simple tasks results in a slower AR System. And let's not forget the "Run
process" functionality, which has acted like a pseudo scripting input for
as long as I can remember, ie if there's no workflow for it, we'll use a
run process event. How long is the list of run process events these days?
With the point and click interface being slowly overtaken by Java plugins,
random run process events, C (eugh) plugins, etc., isn't it time everything
was cleaned up in favour of a modern, standard, widely used scripting
language to represent workflow? And I state very clearly, the point and
click interface would be used to drive this workflow, removing no existing
functionality.
For those who fancy a trip back in time, I recall Mid Tier 5 and 6.0 had a
workflow engine built into it. The workflow was sent to the browser in
structures, and a Javascript workflow engine "ran" it. This was very, very
slow. So in 6.3, a bright spark decided to replace it with the simple
principal of writing out workflow as Javascript, and it got a lot faster.
At that point, the schema tables could have begun retirement.
I wonder how much money BMC has spent trying to re-invent the wheel with
overlays, when a scripted solution would have been cheaper and brought many
benefits - not least an end to the 30 minute start up times for ITSM 7.6.04.
If BMC want to give JSS a pile of money, we'd be happy to write it for them :-)
_______________________________________________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org
attend wwrug12 www.wwrug12.com ARSList: "Where the Answers Are"
--
John David Sundberg
235 East 6th Street, Suite 400B
St. Paul, MN 55101
(651) 556-0930-work
(651) 247-6766-cell
(651) 695-8577-fax
***@kineticdata.com

_______________________________________________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org
attend wwrug12 www.wwrug12.com ARSList: "Where the Answers Are"
John Baker
2012-01-12 19:37:19 UTC
Permalink
Guillaume

I do take onboard your points but I have to disagree: AR System provides no version control. If you believe it does, please tell me how I revert a form to its state at any point in time since AR System was installed, and no, taking hourly backups of my database isn't a useful step forward.

I don't feel the 4/5/6GL discussion is relevant to my post (and it's not something I really recognise now-a-days). I'm talking about how to improve the platform, not the way in which it's used. And many problems in IT are not simply solved by some sticky tape, or a new cache, but a serious change in thinking. That's evident in MId Tier 6.3, and if the concept was pushed back to the AR System server level, the entire platform would benefit.

I appreciate change is never easy, but as other posters have pointed out, there's a lot of attraction to having an easy to use platform that can also happily compete with other platforms.

I've self-taught myself to write in a number of languages (yet I speak just one), and I don't see why AR System developers should be placed into a box and told they can only use the admin tool with limited functionality, no version control or useful development tools, or find a Java compiler and use another product. There's a lot of middle ground between those two poles.


John
Easter, David
2012-01-12 20:21:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Baker
please tell me how I revert a form to its state at any point in time since AR System was installed
What's New: BMC Remedy Action Request System 7.5.00: http://documents.bmc.com/supportu/documents/84/15/98415/98415.pdf

The AR System server provides the following version control functions:

[...]

Object modification log - With this feature enabled, the AR System server automatically logs every change to an object and, optionally, exports the objects. Users can view the log entries in the AR Server Version Control: Object Modification Log form and restore a saved version of an object from the .def file attached to a log entry.

For more information, see the Form and Application Objects Guide.

-David J. Easter
Manager of Product Management, Remedy Platform
BMC Software, Inc.
 
The opinions, statements, and/or suggested courses of action expressed in this E-mail do not necessarily reflect those of BMC Software, Inc.  My voluntary participation in this forum is not intended to convey a role as a spokesperson, liaison or public relations representative for BMC Software, Inc.
-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) [mailto:***@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of John Baker
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2012 11:37 AM
To: ***@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Overlay and Applications

Guillaume

I do take onboard your points but I have to disagree: AR System provides no version control. If you believe it does, please tell me how I revert a form to its state at any point in time since AR System was installed, and no, taking hourly backups of my database isn't a useful step forward.

I don't feel the 4/5/6GL discussion is relevant to my post (and it's not something I really recognise now-a-days). I'm talking about how to improve the platform, not the way in which it's used. And many problems in IT are not simply solved by some sticky tape, or a new cache, but a serious change in thinking. That's evident in MId Tier 6.3, and if the concept was pushed back to the AR System server level, the entire platform would benefit.

I appreciate change is never easy, but as other posters have pointed out, there's a lot of attraction to having an easy to use platform that can also happily compete with other platforms.

I've self-taught myself to write in a number of languages (yet I speak just one), and I don't see why AR System developers should be placed into a box and told they can only use the admin tool with limited functionality, no version control or useful development tools, or find a Java compiler and use another product. There's a lot of middle ground between those two poles.


John

_______________________________________________________________________________
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LJ LongWing
2012-01-12 20:31:32 UTC
Permalink
John,
Starting with 7.5 (I think it was), Remedy included a Version Control
capability that the system can automatically make a backup def of all code
as it's modified. So it keeps versions of specific code and such....the
problem is this. The export of this information is in Def format. I cannot
say 'show me the diff between v2 and v7 of an object. This is specifically
because the def is a proprietary encoded format. Even if it was exported to
XML Def it wouldn't be extremely useful because of the nature of the XML.
If it was exported as a 'script', then I would easily be able to see the
differences between versions and be able to merge different branches of
effort a bit easier than I currently can.

-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:***@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of John Baker
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2012 12:37 PM
To: ***@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Overlay and Applications

Guillaume

I do take onboard your points but I have to disagree: AR System provides no
version control. If you believe it does, please tell me how I revert a form
to its state at any point in time since AR System was installed, and no,
taking hourly backups of my database isn't a useful step forward.

I don't feel the 4/5/6GL discussion is relevant to my post (and it's not
something I really recognise now-a-days). I'm talking about how to improve
the platform, not the way in which it's used. And many problems in IT are
not simply solved by some sticky tape, or a new cache, but a serious change
in thinking. That's evident in MId Tier 6.3, and if the concept was pushed
back to the AR System server level, the entire platform would benefit.

I appreciate change is never easy, but as other posters have pointed out,
there's a lot of attraction to having an easy to use platform that can also
happily compete with other platforms.

I've self-taught myself to write in a number of languages (yet I speak just
one), and I don't see why AR System developers should be placed into a box
and told they can only use the admin tool with limited functionality, no
version control or useful development tools, or find a Java compiler and use
another product. There's a lot of middle ground between those two poles.


John

____________________________________________________________________________
___
UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org
attend wwrug12 www.wwrug12.com ARSList: "Where the Answers Are"
Jose Huerta
2012-01-12 21:06:15 UTC
Permalink
Believe me, I don't want to make publicity of my blog, is jut for not
rewriting it again:

http://theremedyforit.com/2011/12/version-control-in-bmc-ars/

Regards,

Jose Huerta
http://theremedyforit.com/
Post by LJ LongWing
John,
Starting with 7.5 (I think it was), Remedy included a Version Control
capability that the system can automatically make a backup def of all code
as it's modified. So it keeps versions of specific code and such....the
problem is this. The export of this information is in Def format. I cannot
say 'show me the diff between v2 and v7 of an object. This is specifically
because the def is a proprietary encoded format. Even if it was exported to
XML Def it wouldn't be extremely useful because of the nature of the XML.
If it was exported as a 'script', then I would easily be able to see the
differences between versions and be able to merge different branches of
effort a bit easier than I currently can.
-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2012 12:37 PM
Subject: Overlay and Applications
Guillaume
I do take onboard your points but I have to disagree: AR System provides no
version control. If you believe it does, please tell me how I revert a form
to its state at any point in time since AR System was installed, and no,
taking hourly backups of my database isn't a useful step forward.
I don't feel the 4/5/6GL discussion is relevant to my post (and it's not
something I really recognise now-a-days). I'm talking about how to improve
the platform, not the way in which it's used. And many problems in IT are
not simply solved by some sticky tape, or a new cache, but a serious change
in thinking. That's evident in MId Tier 6.3, and if the concept was pushed
back to the AR System server level, the entire platform would benefit.
I appreciate change is never easy, but as other posters have pointed out,
there's a lot of attraction to having an easy to use platform that can also
happily compete with other platforms.
I've self-taught myself to write in a number of languages (yet I speak just
one), and I don't see why AR System developers should be placed into a box
and told they can only use the admin tool with limited functionality, no
version control or useful development tools, or find a Java compiler and use
another product. There's a lot of middle ground between those two poles.
John
____________________________________________________________________________
___
UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org
attend wwrug12 www.wwrug12.com ARSList: "Where the Answers Are"
_______________________________________________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org
attend wwrug12 www.wwrug12.com ARSList: "Where the Answers Are"
_______________________________________________________________________________
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Guillaume Rheault
2012-01-12 21:04:55 UTC
Permalink
John,

It seems to me you are not familiar with the latest features of ARS or Mid-tier. To many features and enhancements have been introduced since ARS and mid-tier 6.3. It looks like you are not familiar with DevStudio either, since you refer to the admin tool.
The platform is being improved. BMC is a very large company and they are investing in ARS a lot. I would even say they are betting the farm on it, or close to it. Perhaps the rate of change is not as fast as we would desire (other would say it's too fast).

I think there is a change in the thinking: overlays is proof of that. The mid-tier is being re-designed. I am not here to speak for BMC: but it seems we are focusing too much on the negative. Other applications or app platforms are much worse: service-now is junk; the only thing that helps is was the SaaS model, and now BMC offers that too. The old Peregrine service center was pure crap; Tivoli Service Desk was written in KML programming language as you may know: well, who the hell knows KML? Not many. You may be able to FoxPro dude faster than KML programmers.

I don't think it is accurate to compare a RAD environment or as matter of fact an application suite with a programming language. Two different worlds. You may compare Remedy with the equivalent from CA, IBM, HP or service-now. But not with a programming language, that is not accurate. Compare it with another RAD environment to be able to compare apples to apples.

Seems to me you need an aggiornamento in the latest features of ARS and mid-tier sicne version 7.0 and later.

cheers Guillaume

________________________________________
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) [***@ARSLIST.ORG] on behalf of John Baker [***@JAVASYSTEMSOLUTIONS.COM]
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2012 2:37 PM
To: ***@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Overlay and Applications

Guillaume

I do take onboard your points but I have to disagree: AR System provides no version control. If you believe it does, please tell me how I revert a form to its state at any point in time since AR System was installed, and no, taking hourly backups of my database isn't a useful step forward.

I don't feel the 4/5/6GL discussion is relevant to my post (and it's not something I really recognise now-a-days). I'm talking about how to improve the platform, not the way in which it's used. And many problems in IT are not simply solved by some sticky tape, or a new cache, but a serious change in thinking. That's evident in MId Tier 6.3, and if the concept was pushed back to the AR System server level, the entire platform would benefit.

I appreciate change is never easy, but as other posters have pointed out, there's a lot of attraction to having an easy to use platform that can also happily compete with other platforms.

I've self-taught myself to write in a number of languages (yet I speak just one), and I don't see why AR System developers should be placed into a box and told they can only use the admin tool with limited functionality, no version control or useful development tools, or find a Java compiler and use another product. There's a lot of middle ground between those two poles.


John

_______________________________________________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org
attend wwrug12 www.wwrug12.com ARSList: "Where the Answers Are"
LJ LongWing
2012-01-12 21:28:07 UTC
Permalink
<slightly off topic>
I did a fair amount of KML during my stint at MCI/Worldcom/EDS (none of
which exist anymore)....wouldn't wish it on anyone....don't even list it on
my resume :)
</slightly off topic>

-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:***@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Guillaume Rheault
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2012 2:05 PM
To: ***@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: Overlay and Applications

John,

It seems to me you are not familiar with the latest features of ARS or
Mid-tier. To many features and enhancements have been introduced since ARS
and mid-tier 6.3. It looks like you are not familiar with DevStudio either,
since you refer to the admin tool.
The platform is being improved. BMC is a very large company and they are
investing in ARS a lot. I would even say they are betting the farm on it, or
close to it. Perhaps the rate of change is not as fast as we would desire
(other would say it's too fast).

I think there is a change in the thinking: overlays is proof of that. The
mid-tier is being re-designed. I am not here to speak for BMC: but it seems
we are focusing too much on the negative. Other applications or app
platforms are much worse: service-now is junk; the only thing that helps is
was the SaaS model, and now BMC offers that too. The old Peregrine service
center was pure crap; Tivoli Service Desk was written in KML programming
language as you may know: well, who the hell knows KML? Not many. You may be
able to FoxPro dude faster than KML programmers.

I don't think it is accurate to compare a RAD environment or as matter of
fact an application suite with a programming language. Two different worlds.
You may compare Remedy with the equivalent from CA, IBM, HP or service-now.
But not with a programming language, that is not accurate. Compare it with
another RAD environment to be able to compare apples to apples.

Seems to me you need an aggiornamento in the latest features of ARS and
mid-tier sicne version 7.0 and later.

cheers Guillaume

________________________________________
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) [***@ARSLIST.ORG]
on behalf of John Baker [***@JAVASYSTEMSOLUTIONS.COM]
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2012 2:37 PM
To: ***@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Overlay and Applications

Guillaume

I do take onboard your points but I have to disagree: AR System provides no
version control. If you believe it does, please tell me how I revert a form
to its state at any point in time since AR System was installed, and no,
taking hourly backups of my database isn't a useful step forward.

I don't feel the 4/5/6GL discussion is relevant to my post (and it's not
something I really recognise now-a-days). I'm talking about how to improve
the platform, not the way in which it's used. And many problems in IT are
not simply solved by some sticky tape, or a new cache, but a serious change
in thinking. That's evident in MId Tier 6.3, and if the concept was pushed
back to the AR System server level, the entire platform would benefit.

I appreciate change is never easy, but as other posters have pointed out,
there's a lot of attraction to having an easy to use platform that can also
happily compete with other platforms.

I've self-taught myself to write in a number of languages (yet I speak just
one), and I don't see why AR System developers should be placed into a box
and told they can only use the admin tool with limited functionality, no
version control or useful development tools, or find a Java compiler and use
another product. There's a lot of middle ground between those two poles.


John

____________________________________________________________________________
___
UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org
attend wwrug12 www.wwrug12.com ARSList: "Where the Answers Are"

____________________________________________________________________________
___
UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org
attend wwrug12 www.wwrug12.com ARSList: "Where the Answers Are"
Theo Fondse
2012-01-13 10:30:53 UTC
Permalink
John,

Firstly, the 3/4 GL differentiation is important to appreciate in this regard, and therefore, relevant.
The Action Request System platform *IS* a 4GL and as such it is not fair to do direct comparisons to functionality or ways of working that we find in 3GL environments such as Java, C, VB or even .Net.
ARS allows someone with no programming background whatsoever, to create working, usable applications within a matter of hours. No 3GL does that.
ARS just sits in a different niche of the market.

Secondly, my open challenge still stands to any 3GL platform to develop a working functional and customisable client/server workflow application from scratch, in less time than with ARS, that (to name only a few)
a) can run on Windows, Linux and Unix and be migrated between all these within a matter of minutes
b) has a native and web front-end capable of Query-by-Example or advanced search criteria
c) is capable of full customisable application and data permission structures
d) is capable of handling more than 200K records in all tables (meaning integration to a mainstream RDBMS and not using ODBC)
e) is integrateable to other systems using an open API amongst about 19 (or more) other mechanisms.
Even Java can try with EJB's...


Thirdly, Yes, having done a lot of scripting development outside of ARS using 3GL platforms such as COBOL, Java, VB etc, I too, have been frustrated by some of the development (and source control) limitations posed by ARS in the past since starting out with Ver 2 in late '96, but the platform has grown significantly since then especially with the bold move to the new eclipse-based DevStudio (Hats off to Doug and the team).
Conversely to your statement, one could also argue: " I don't see why AR System developers should be placed into a box and told they must do things the way those in the 3GL world does it"
There are a number of tools available to compare different copies of code (such as Remedy Migrator).
We just have to be patient and give Doug and the boys more time to slicken up the new overlay and version control functionality.

Lastly, To answer your question "can anyone think of a disadvantage with taking workflow from the schema and into scripts?:
Having to debug large workflow systems, sometimes cold-faced, after things have gone wrong, is a huge and daunting task. Doing this with having the ARS "code" in db tables has turned out to be a heaven-sent thing for me.
This is because
a) you can run customised sql scripts in one place on the ARS "Code" to find out within seconds where the fault could be in the code or to see what code is related to what. Scripts won't give you that.
b) you can run customised sql scripts in one place on the ARS "Code" to find form/workflow objects you should re-use within seconds. Scripts won't give you that.
c) you can run customised sql scripts in one place on the ARS "Code" to document your system or specific portions of it. Scripts won't give you that same type of flexibility.

Furthermore, scripts pose other disadvantages:
d) a single backup command backs up all your data and all your code in one managed location. Storing scripts across multiple ssh connected servers will make it difficult to back up or replicate your system elsewhere
e) ARS (with it's table based code storage) provides functionality to limit permissions to view or change code. Scripts stored on a filesystem pose a security vulnerability of being overwritten, deleted or infected by viruses as well as access to view it's contents by unintended individuals.
f) Managing a code base where your code lies in scripts across multiple locations can be costly on time as opposed to have everything in one spot.

I agree with you that we should keep on looking for better ways to do things, but ARS would not have come as far as it has done if it did not provide a huge positive netto balance of advantages as opposed to it's cost and disadvantages.
To throw something out because we have newer different ways of doing the same thing would be like stopping traditional procreation activities because we have invented artificial insemination.
The way ARS is designed around storing it's "code" may not be 100% perfect, but my vote is to keep the code in the tables.




Best Regards,
Theo

-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) [mailto:***@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of John Baker
Sent: 12 January 2012 21:37
To: ***@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Overlay and Applications

Guillaume

I do take onboard your points but I have to disagree: AR System provides no version control. If you believe it does, please tell me how I revert a form to its state at any point in time since AR System was installed, and no, taking hourly backups of my database isn't a useful step forward.

I don't feel the 4/5/6GL discussion is relevant to my post (and it's not something I really recognise now-a-days). I'm talking about how to improve the platform, not the way in which it's used. And many problems in IT are not simply solved by some sticky tape, or a new cache, but a serious change in thinking. That's evident in MId Tier 6.3, and if the concept was pushed back to the AR System server level, the entire platform would benefit.

I appreciate change is never easy, but as other posters have pointed out, there's a lot of attraction to having an easy to use platform that can also happily compete with other platforms.

I've self-taught myself to write in a number of languages (yet I speak just one), and I don't see why AR System developers should be placed into a box and told they can only use the admin tool with limited functionality, no version control or useful development tools, or find a Java compiler and use another product. There's a lot of middle ground between those two poles.


John

_______________________________________________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org attend wwrug12 www.wwrug12.com ARSList: "Where the Answers Are"
David Sanders
2012-01-13 13:23:11 UTC
Permalink
Theo

ARS is not the only rapid development platform. For example, take a look at
this


This is Mendix (http://www.mendix.com) which is an example of the new breed
of agile development tools. Source control, yes; PaaS, yes; SaaS, yes;
Cloud or On-site deployment, yes... etc. Windows, Linux, yes; migrate
between platforms, yes; proper permissions modelling, yes; scalable, yes ...

I'm a good Remedy developer, but I can develop apps 2 or 3 times as quickly
on this platform as I can in Remedy. We have a full ITSM suite written in
both ARS and in Mendix - virtually identical functionality. Some things are
easier in ARS, many more are easier in Mendix, and one of the things I
really like about Mendix is that it has a fully-normalized data structure.

Not scripts for workflow, but visual modeling, but with full version
control. There are other platforms out there too - so if what you want is
rapid and agile development tools, take a broader view of what's available
in the Market, it's not just 3GLs

Regards

David Sanders
Solution Architect
Enterprise Service Suite @ Work
==========================

tel +44 1494 468980
mobile +44 7710 377761
email ***@westoverconsulting.co.uk

web http://www.e-servicesuite.co.uk


-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:***@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Theo Fondse
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2012 10:31 AM
To: ***@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: Overlay and Applications

John,

Firstly, the 3/4 GL differentiation is important to appreciate in this
regard, and therefore, relevant.
The Action Request System platform *IS* a 4GL and as such it is not fair to
do direct comparisons to functionality or ways of working that we find in
3GL environments such as Java, C, VB or even .Net.
ARS allows someone with no programming background whatsoever, to create
working, usable applications within a matter of hours. No 3GL does that.
ARS just sits in a different niche of the market.

Secondly, my open challenge still stands to any 3GL platform to develop a
working functional and customisable client/server workflow application from
scratch, in less time than with ARS, that (to name only a few)
a) can run on Windows, Linux and Unix and be migrated between all these
within a matter of minutes
b) has a native and web front-end capable of Query-by-Example or advanced
search criteria
c) is capable of full customisable application and data permission
structures
d) is capable of handling more than 200K records in all tables (meaning
integration to a mainstream RDBMS and not using ODBC)
e) is integrateable to other systems using an open API amongst about 19 (or
more) other mechanisms.
Even Java can try with EJB's...
Theo Fondse
2012-01-13 13:43:24 UTC
Permalink
David,

Thanks for this, I'll definitely give Mendix a look.

I know there are lots of other Rapid development tools out there, but My point with this was that Remedy, as a 4GL, is flexible, powerful and limited - all at the same time, but the way it does things have certain merit to it and is not fair to expect ARS to give everything the 3GL world offers and in the same way, as it has it's niche area where it sits with its own set of real benefits in spite of certain limitations.


Best Regards,
Theo



-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) [mailto:***@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of David Sanders
Sent: 13 January 2012 15:23
To: ***@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: Overlay and Applications

Theo

ARS is not the only rapid development platform. For example, take a look at this http://youtu.be/FWUb_4XqHcw

This is Mendix (http://www.mendix.com) which is an example of the new breed of agile development tools. Source control, yes; PaaS, yes; SaaS, yes; Cloud or On-site deployment, yes... etc. Windows, Linux, yes; migrate between platforms, yes; proper permissions modelling, yes; scalable, yes ...

I'm a good Remedy developer, but I can develop apps 2 or 3 times as quickly on this platform as I can in Remedy. We have a full ITSM suite written in both ARS and in Mendix - virtually identical functionality. Some things are easier in ARS, many more are easier in Mendix, and one of the things I really like about Mendix is that it has a fully-normalized data structure.

Not scripts for workflow, but visual modeling, but with full version control. There are other platforms out there too - so if what you want is rapid and agile development tools, take a broader view of what's available in the Market, it's not just 3GLs

Regards

David Sanders
Solution Architect
Enterprise Service Suite @ Work
==========================

tel +44 1494 468980
mobile +44 7710 377761
email ***@westoverconsulting.co.uk

web http://www.e-servicesuite.co.uk


-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) [mailto:***@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Theo Fondse
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2012 10:31 AM
To: ***@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: Overlay and Applications

John,

Firstly, the 3/4 GL differentiation is important to appreciate in this regard, and therefore, relevant.
The Action Request System platform *IS* a 4GL and as such it is not fair to do direct comparisons to functionality or ways of working that we find in 3GL environments such as Java, C, VB or even .Net.
ARS allows someone with no programming background whatsoever, to create working, usable applications within a matter of hours. No 3GL does that.
ARS just sits in a different niche of the market.

Secondly, my open challenge still stands to any 3GL platform to develop a working functional and customisable client/server workflow application from scratch, in less time than with ARS, that (to name only a few)
a) can run on Windows, Linux and Unix and be migrated between all these within a matter of minutes
b) has a native and web front-end capable of Query-by-Example or advanced search criteria
c) is capable of full customisable application and data permission structures
d) is capable of handling more than 200K records in all tables (meaning integration to a mainstream RDBMS and not using ODBC)
e) is integrateable to other systems using an open API amongst about 19 (or
more) other mechanisms.
Even Java can try with EJB's...


_______________________________________________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org
attend wwrug12 www.wwrug12.com ARSList: "Where the Answers Are"
Grooms, Frederick W
2012-01-13 15:06:24 UTC
Permalink
One item I must question... Your statement about "fully-normalized data structure". I believe you are mixing the ITSM canned application versus the Action Request System. I have several applications in my pure custom AR System that are fully normalized.

Fred

-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) [mailto:***@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of David Sanders
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2012 7:23 AM
To: ***@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: Overlay and Applications

Theo

ARS is not the only rapid development platform. For example, take a look at
this http://youtu.be/FWUb_4XqHcw

This is Mendix (http://www.mendix.com) which is an example of the new breed
of agile development tools. Source control, yes; PaaS, yes; SaaS, yes;
Cloud or On-site deployment, yes... etc. Windows, Linux, yes; migrate
between platforms, yes; proper permissions modelling, yes; scalable, yes ...

I'm a good Remedy developer, but I can develop apps 2 or 3 times as quickly
on this platform as I can in Remedy. We have a full ITSM suite written in
both ARS and in Mendix - virtually identical functionality. Some things are
easier in ARS, many more are easier in Mendix, and one of the things I
really like about Mendix is that it has a fully-normalized data structure.

Not scripts for workflow, but visual modeling, but with full version
control. There are other platforms out there too - so if what you want is
rapid and agile development tools, take a broader view of what's available
in the Market, it's not just 3GLs

Regards

David Sanders
Solution Architect
Enterprise Service Suite @ Work
==========================

tel +44 1494 468980
mobile +44 7710 377761
email ***@westoverconsulting.co.uk

web http://www.e-servicesuite.co.uk


-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:***@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Theo Fondse
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2012 10:31 AM
To: ***@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: Overlay and Applications

John,

Firstly, the 3/4 GL differentiation is important to appreciate in this
regard, and therefore, relevant.
The Action Request System platform *IS* a 4GL and as such it is not fair to
do direct comparisons to functionality or ways of working that we find in
3GL environments such as Java, C, VB or even .Net.
ARS allows someone with no programming background whatsoever, to create
working, usable applications within a matter of hours. No 3GL does that.
ARS just sits in a different niche of the market.

Secondly, my open challenge still stands to any 3GL platform to develop a
working functional and customisable client/server workflow application from
scratch, in less time than with ARS, that (to name only a few)
a) can run on Windows, Linux and Unix and be migrated between all these
within a matter of minutes
b) has a native and web front-end capable of Query-by-Example or advanced
search criteria
c) is capable of full customisable application and data permission
structures
d) is capable of handling more than 200K records in all tables (meaning
integration to a mainstream RDBMS and not using ODBC)
e) is integrateable to other systems using an open API amongst about 19 (or
more) other mechanisms.
Even Java can try with EJB's...
David Sanders
2012-01-13 15:35:25 UTC
Permalink
Hi Fred

I agree, it is possible to build a fully-normalized data structure in
Remedy, although it is not easy to do and is not 'encouraged' by the admin
tool/dev studio. If you have a search menu on your form, your data
structure is probably not normalized.

For example, in Remedy to link a person (contact record) to an expenses
record for instance, you would normally add a field to the Expenses record
to store the contact name, and add a menu that queries the contact table to
populate it. That is not normalized as it is storing the contact name in
the expenses record.

The 'normalized' Remedy version of this would be to store a foreign key for
the contact record, and have an active link fire on display to pull back
data from the contact record into display-only fields. So, in Remedy to
normalize this simple structure you need to add both display-only fields and
workflow to populate them. That's inefficient and a lot of extra effort.

The more complicated your application the larger this overhead becomes and
it quickly becomes unmanageable.

In Mendix you define an association between the 2 entities (contact and
expenses) and define it to be 1 to 1, 1 to many or many to many. You can
then display any data from the contact record in your expenses form using
the association without any additional workflow. The association is
displayed as a drop-down menu or a pop-up select form as needed. (In the
database the association is actually stored in a third table containing the
foreign keys of the two records that are linked, but this is hidden from the
developer and managed by the API).

So in Remedy, you have to try really hard to normalize a data structure; in
Mendix, the reverse is true and you would have to write extra code to
de-normalize the structure.

David Sanders
Solution Architect
Enterprise Service Suite @ Work
==========================

tel +44 1494 468980
mobile +44 7710 377761
email ***@westoverconsulting.co.uk

web http://www.westoverconsulting.co.uk


-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:***@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Grooms, Frederick W
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2012 3:06 PM
To: ***@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: Overlay and Applications

One item I must question... Your statement about "fully-normalized data
structure". I believe you are mixing the ITSM canned application versus the
Action Request System. I have several applications in my pure custom AR
System that are fully normalized.

Fred

-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:***@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of David Sanders
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2012 7:23 AM
To: ***@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: Overlay and Applications

Theo

ARS is not the only rapid development platform. For example, take a look at
this http://youtu.be/FWUb_4XqHcw

This is Mendix (http://www.mendix.com) which is an example of the new breed
of agile development tools. Source control, yes; PaaS, yes; SaaS, yes;
Cloud or On-site deployment, yes... etc. Windows, Linux, yes; migrate
between platforms, yes; proper permissions modelling, yes; scalable, yes ...

I'm a good Remedy developer, but I can develop apps 2 or 3 times as quickly
on this platform as I can in Remedy. We have a full ITSM suite written in
both ARS and in Mendix - virtually identical functionality. Some things are
easier in ARS, many more are easier in Mendix, and one of the things I
really like about Mendix is that it has a fully-normalized data structure.

Not scripts for workflow, but visual modeling, but with full version
control. There are other platforms out there too - so if what you want is
rapid and agile development tools, take a broader view of what's available
in the Market, it's not just 3GLs

Regards

David Sanders
Solution Architect
Enterprise Service Suite @ Work
==========================

tel +44 1494 468980
mobile +44 7710 377761
email ***@westoverconsulting.co.uk

web http://www.e-servicesuite.co.uk


-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:***@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Theo Fondse
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2012 10:31 AM
To: ***@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: Overlay and Applications

John,

Firstly, the 3/4 GL differentiation is important to appreciate in this
regard, and therefore, relevant.
The Action Request System platform *IS* a 4GL and as such it is not fair to
do direct comparisons to functionality or ways of working that we find in
3GL environments such as Java, C, VB or even .Net.
ARS allows someone with no programming background whatsoever, to create
working, usable applications within a matter of hours. No 3GL does that.
ARS just sits in a different niche of the market.

Secondly, my open challenge still stands to any 3GL platform to develop a
working functional and customisable client/server workflow application from
scratch, in less time than with ARS, that (to name only a few)
a) can run on Windows, Linux and Unix and be migrated between all these
within a matter of minutes
b) has a native and web front-end capable of Query-by-Example or advanced
search criteria
c) is capable of full customisable application and data permission
structures
d) is capable of handling more than 200K records in all tables (meaning
integration to a mainstream RDBMS and not using ODBC)
e) is integrateable to other systems using an open API amongst about 19 (or
more) other mechanisms.
Even Java can try with EJB's...


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John Baker
2012-01-12 20:58:42 UTC
Permalink
So, three developers are working on something. Developer A decides that
he needs to re-run the application as per date X. If that means
developers B and C see the same change, it's not useful version control,
particularly if there are no diffs.

Indeed, do developers B and C, who may have also been working on a
particular part of ITSM, lose their changes?
Jose Huerta
2012-01-12 21:13:31 UTC
Permalink
It doesn't work like that.

First, version control is independent for each element at the server. You
don't rollback to a date, you rollback some workflow or some forms to a
previous state, remaining the rest untouched.

Second, two people working separately on the same object is not desirable.
In order to avoid this Remedy provides an object reservation concept, where
one developer "reserves" some objects and the rest are not allowed to touch
this element. It works very similar to the reservation concept of CVS.

As I say in my post, it is not the best version control system (it could be
far better), but it is unfair to say that Remedy doesn't have a Control
Version System.

Regards,

Jose Huerta
http://theremedyforit.com/
Post by John Baker
So, three developers are working on something. Developer A decides that
he needs to re-run the application as per date X. If that means
developers B and C see the same change, it's not useful version control,
particularly if there are no diffs.
Indeed, do developers B and C, who may have also been working on a
particular part of ITSM, lose their changes?
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John Baker
2012-01-12 21:28:54 UTC
Permalink
Guillaume,

Happy to compare with HP Service Manager: the product uses a script
based approach whilst also providing users with a UI.

Locking/reserving objects isn't source control: it's visual source safe,
circa 1995. VSS has since died.

I made a very simple, obvious suggestion: storing the schema as a script
not a bespoke table, would vastly improve the platform. I've given you a
long list of benefits, and others have too (Jose provides a super
example). None of them change the way AR System works or the way in
which anyone interacts with it.


John
John Baker
2012-01-13 11:53:18 UTC
Permalink
Theo,
(a) Or you can use one of a million tools, such as grep.
(b) Yes, they do. Any good plugin to Eclipse or whatever will have a "show references".
(c) Yes, they do. It is a bit bizarre to suggest you can't document scripts, when they are infinitely more flexible.
Furthermore.
(d) If that is a serious concern, they can be stored in a database. However, it's really not hard to copy a package (a single zip file) between different AR System instances when you deploy an application. Or tell AR System to check it out of svn/git/etc.
(e) There's no useful purpose for permissioning code between different users. If you want to allow user input, that's what the database is for - to hold user/application specific information. Comment about viruses is bizarre; this is how the rest of the world operators, so I don't see why it's a concern to ARS.
(f) I refer you to a source control system.

I'm afraid I can only bring you back to my original point: Storing workflow code as scripts makes far more sense, brings AR System into a new world where it can make use of the countless source control systems and tools available to everyone else, and can be achieved without changing the UI.

Since I started this discussion, I've thought of another superb advantage. Once the workflow isn't stuffed into the scheam, AR System will be far more efficient. A standalone AR System instance should be able to run on a desktop machine, connect to a database, and read local workflow scripts. One can finally develop a solution without having to negotiate for control of workflow with others in the team. This single change would vastly reduce costs for BMC when developing ITSM, assuming there is more than one person working on the product.


John
Theo Fondse
2012-01-13 13:29:59 UTC
Permalink
John,

On your reply:
a) That is still a challenge with scripts scattered across different servers - even with source control
b) You would not be able to customise the output into the format you need for a specific purpose. The "show references" functionality is not as flexible or extensible as a sql statement.
c) If you read my sentence on scripts for this point again, you'll see I referred to flexibility - not if it can or can not be done. My point here was that (even though scripts themeselves are much more flexible as you rightly pointed out than filters or active links) the electronic generation of documentation about scripts is a bit rigid and not as flexible or extensible as a sql statement.
d) Ever migrated (or re-deployed a copy of) an application based on scripts spanning across multiple servers (code and data all at once)? it's a lot easier, quicker and more reliable to backup and restore a single database. If BMC does consider your suggestion to rather compile scripts, I would suggest that they are indeed stored in a DB to make migration much less of a pain. We will lose the performance benefit if AR server checks out code live-on-the-go from another system.
e) It is "a bit bizarre" to suggest that "There's no useful purpose for permissioning code between different users" - it cuts out finger-pointing and politics between developers and in certain environments like certain governmental orgs, you have to use permissions to comply to job segregation and security policies.
f) Although source control systems goes a long way to centralize access to code, it does not guarantee unauthorised code changes with scripts scattered across different filesystems.

I agree that an ITSM 7.6.4 implementation has become a bit heavy for a desktop to handle (esp. on RAM), but all serious enterprise-class systems have sadly gone that way over the years...but BMC can "remedy" this to an extent (please excuse the pun) by optimising the code for the OOTB modules.

One idea that your suggestion have sparked in my mind is that it would possibly be nice to have a tool that can look at Remedy code and generate a Java app/code from that. This will allow ARS to be used as a rapid prototype modelling tool for Java projects...?

If, coming from a Java programming background for instance, you still prefer using scripts, that's ok, Remedy has the ability (albeit limited) for you to do that in certain instances, like using the filter scripting library (See https://communities.bmc.com/communities/docs/DOC-63) (as I've used in the past myself), web-services or even run-process actions executing your local scripts, but I would still argue that the way ARS handles it's own "code" has it's benefits and it's place under the sun and that we need not change ARS in this regard.


Best Regards,
Theo


-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) [mailto:***@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of John Baker
Sent: 13 January 2012 13:53
To: ***@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Overlay and Applications

Theo,
(a) Or you can use one of a million tools, such as grep.
(b) Yes, they do. Any good plugin to Eclipse or whatever will have a "show references".
(c) Yes, they do. It is a bit bizarre to suggest you can't document scripts, when they are infinitely more flexible.
Furthermore.
(d) If that is a serious concern, they can be stored in a database. However, it's really not hard to copy a package (a single zip file) between different AR System instances when you deploy an application. Or tell AR System to check it out of svn/git/etc.
(e) There's no useful purpose for permissioning code between different users. If you want to allow user input, that's what the database is for - to hold user/application specific information. Comment about viruses is bizarre; this is how the rest of the world operators, so I don't see why it's a concern to ARS.
(f) I refer you to a source control system.

I'm afraid I can only bring you back to my original point: Storing workflow code as scripts makes far more sense, brings AR System into a new world where it can make use of the countless source control systems and tools available to everyone else, and can be achieved without changing the UI.

Since I started this discussion, I've thought of another superb advantage. Once the workflow isn't stuffed into the scheam, AR System will be far more efficient. A standalone AR System instance should be able to run on a desktop machine, connect to a database, and read local workflow scripts. One can finally develop a solution without having to negotiate for control of workflow with others in the team. This single change would vastly reduce costs for BMC when developing ITSM, assuming there is more than one person working on the product.


John

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